Turkey and Tinsel introduction and post-screening discussion with David Pendleton, Martin Parr and Chris Killip.

Transcript

For more interviews and talks, visit the Harvard Film Archive Visiting Artists Collection page.

John Quackenbush  0:01 

October 25, 2014. The Harvard Film Archive screened Turkey and Tinsel. This is the audio recording of the introduction by David Pendleton and filmmaker Martin Parr. And following is a Q&A and discussion with Martin Parr, David Pendleton, and photographer/professor Chris Killip. Take note that the recording ends just before David Pendleton calls for an applause and to an end of the Q&A.

David Pendleton  0:30 

[MISSING INITIAL AUDIO] I’m David Pendleton, the programmer here at the Harvard Film Archive. And I'm here to welcome you all to this screening tonight, featuring, in person, Martin Parr. Just a few words of introduction. As always, if you have anything on you that makes any noise or sheds any light, we ask that you please turn it off and refrain from illuminating it while the house lights are down, for the pleasure and concentration of those around you.

Tonight is the second of two films directed by Mr. Parr that we're presenting as part of his visit here to Harvard, in celebration of the publication of the third volume of his history of the photobook. There was a conversation here this afternoon with Mr. Parr about the book, and a book sale. And we're grateful for their help in organizing Martin's visit here to Chris Killip, the Professor in Visual and Environmental Studies here and the head of the photography program here at Harvard. And also to Mark Pearson from Phaidon Press. We're grateful to both of them. And what we're doing here at the Archive is highlighting Martin Parr's work as a filmmaker. There are a number of photographers who, in the course of their career, have turned to the moving image. And so we can place Martin Parr in the same lineage that includes people like William Klein, Robert Frank, Larry Clark, etc. Like many of those photographers, Martin Parr's moving image work dovetails quite nicely with the preoccupations of his photography. In his case particularly, and particularly in the two films that we're showing tonight, the question of national identity in the contemporary world, the question of what it means to be English, and a particular look at communities in the Midlands area in central England. The film that we're going to see tonight dates from 2014, from earlier this year, Turkey and Tinsel. And it's the latest of a handful of films that Mr. Parr has shot in what's called the Black Country, in the Midlands. Although he's also made a film in and about Mongolia, but we could talk more about that later, perhaps. In any case, what you're going to see... If you're not familiar with what a "turkey and tinsel" holiday is, the film will explain it to you. And perhaps Mr. Parr, in his introductory remarks, can tell you. That forms the subject matter of the film that we're going to see. And as with all of Martin Parr's work, whether moving or still, it's filled with a great deal of humor, and some of it a bit edged, perhaps a bit of satire, as well. He will be joining us, as will Chris Killip. So I'll have the pleasure of moderating a conversation between, perhaps, two of the greatest living British photographers. And you'll have the pleasure of listening to it and asking the questions. That'll be immediately after the film. But now, here to say a few words of introduction, please welcome Martin Parr.

[APPLAUSE]

Martin Parr  4:02 

Okay. Thank you. So yes, this is indeed one of four films that I've made about the Black Country. And in 2010, I started doing a very comprehensive photographic study about the Black Country. It's an area that is very run down. It's very near to Birmingham, the second city in Britain, but it's actually relatively isolated. It's called the Black Country because originally it had a lot of foundries, chain making, key making, lock making. And these, of course, have mainly closed, but it's still called the Black Country. And this came about because as we were traveling round, we came across things within this community, which were so interesting that we thought the only way to do them justice was to make films. And having been a filmmaker a few years earlier, which I'd sort of tended to drift away from, you saw, I think, some of you may have seen the film Think of England, which is in my sort of first phase of filmmaking, we decided that the only way to really tell these stories is to make films. So we started making a small one, about a sweet factory. And then we made another three. And this is the last one. And this was about a coach company that we discovered in a town called Bilston. And we just had a hunch that this coach company was traditionally quite an old-fashioned one, a lot of pensioners go, they're their main customers. We just thought if we went on a trip, with this coachload of people from the Black Country outside of the Black Country, it would be a potentially very good subject for a film. So we talked to the company, they were on board with this. We talked to their main driver, who you'll meet, very shortly, and he recommended this particular hotel and this particular trip that we're about to see. So I think the best thing to do is to look at the film, and then I'll see you in an hour's time. Thank you.

[APPLAUSE]

John Quackenbush  5:52 

And now the discussion with Chris Killip, David Pendleton, and Martin Parr.

[APPLAUSE]

David Pendleton  5:59 

Martin, do you want to sit in the middle, maybe?

[APPLAUSE]

Martin Parr  6:27 

Spring water?

Chris Killip  6:13 

[LAUGHS] Martin. Eighty-odd books later, six films. And seeing this film for me tonight, makes me realize how much you love England, Britain, and all its myriad eccentricities and oddness, how you just can't get enough of the multifaceted thing about Britain. And I was thinking about Martin when he was at college. He was a Butlins Redcoat. You won't know what that means. But there's a holiday camp in Britain, Butlins, where basically the working class go for a holiday, and everything's organized. And Martin, you were there as one of the Redcoats, or as a photographer?

Martin Parr  6:51 

Not a Redcoat, no. First year, black-and-white walkie. And then in the second year, I was promoted to a color one. And we had a stripey blazer.

Chris Killip  6:59 

Well, I was a beach photographer, what you call, a black-and-white walkie, on a beach, when Martin was a black-and-white walkie at Butlins. But he went up the ladder. He went to become, you became a color walkie, yeah?

Martin Parr  7:10 

Yes.

Chris Killip  7:10 

Yeah, I never managed to get there.

Martin Parr  7:13 

You've stuck to black and white ever since, more or less!

Chris Killip

I know [LAUGHING].

Martin Parr

You had a little, a little dose in Ireland, but...

Chris Killip  7:18 

I know. But I mean, Martin is doing so many things. And film, for me, because now I can see more clearly how it fits into the jigsaw puzzle of especially this idea of examining all aspects of British life. I don't want to say English life. But a lot of it,

Martin Parr

Yeah.

Chris Killip

it's also Britain as well. And it's the, it's the gamut of British life. I actually know what Martin's working on at the moment, and it couldn't be further removed from what we've just seen. But it's only, in another sense, another aspect of British life. He's photographing at Oxford, and he's also photographing in the City of London. And these are the sort of upper echelons of British life, about the real, sort of, power bases of Britain. And these people are all working-class people, and living life in the way that they want, and also with their eccentricities that they're displaying. But they're equal, it's sort of, Martin did a great program on taste on television. And it was a very funny program, because every week was half an hour. And it always opened up with someone talking about their taste, and their home, and their decorations. And you started to laugh. Except, after ten minutes, you didn't start to laugh, you started looking around your own room, and started to feel, oh, and then it got, you got quite depressed, because you realized if you were on the program, you'd look as, equally as foolish as anybody else, explaining your specific taste and your vanities. And it was, it was, I mean, Martin likes to examine us all, examine us all. He's quite democratic about how he goes about it. He doesn't think any of us are that bad. But he also, I don't think he thinks any of us are that good. But we're all interesting. And that's sort of something that comes over in all your work, Martin.

Martin Parr  8:59 

I guess, different tribes, you know, within

Chris Killip  9:00 

Yeah [LAUGHS].

Martin Parr  9:01 

within British society, as indeed American society. You know, we have different tribes. And I mean, you're right, insofar I'm quite democratic. And at the moment, the City of London-Oxford project is an examination of the establishment, which is so important yet in Britain. The last four years, I've been doing a predominantly working-class area, the Black Country, which has been fantastic. Because, the great thing about the Black Country, and working-class people, is they're much more open, much friendlier. I mean, you can see. We didn't tell anyone on that trip that they were going to be filmed. We literally, we talked to the driver, to John, Keith, the hotelier. They knew, they were expecting us. None of the people on the coach tour knew that we were coming. And so we were having to explain it as we were going along. And you can see that generally, you know, the response and everything was fantastic. And the first people, by the way, we must say the first people we showed the film to, we invited everybody back to John's club. He has a club as well, and we put on food and drinks, and we showed them the film. And they liked it. And that was our way to see if we were gonna have any problems or issues. But that was the first responsibility. And they all laughed, and they enjoyed it. We gave everybody a copy of the DVD. So it was absolutely essential to do that. And the films are currently playing in the Walsall Art Gallery, which Walsall's got the biggest art gallery within the Black Country. So I've got an exhibition of all the still photographs. And we've built a cinema, literally, with very comfy seats, where we show all four films. And they're on continual loop throughout the day. So the idea is, if one– you know, we don't expect anyone to come along and particularly watch the films. But if they want to, they can do so in comfort, and they can see not only this film, but the other three films as well.

Chris Killip  10:43 

So there's a photographic book, a major publication, that goes along with these films. So it's actually a very big body of work over the four-year period. Yeah?

Martin Parr  10:53 

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And I was very lucky, because the person who commissioned these films, the person I was working with, was fantastic. And I mean, they are basically a publicly funded community arts association. What's unusual about them is that the actual work that they produce, whether it be films, or whether it be still photographs, so when we had the opening, couple of weeks back, you know, many of the people who came, were the actual people in photographs. Many of the people who came, you know, so, like Keith, and Gail came up from Weston-super-Mare, to the opening. So it's important to actually show the work back to the people that it's about. And this is, you know, this is a part of the process. And it actually, in a sense, does something that community arts can do. But Emma Chetcuti, who's a very smart woman, she won't just think because it's community arts, it can be done on a local level. She'll get the very best people in. So she's commissioned David Goldblatt. She's commissioned Hans Eijkelboom. The best photographers, the best filmmakers. She got Margaret Drabble, who's one of the most famous writers in Britain, to come and do a series of short stories. And we actually made a woman's magazine

which had these short stories in, and we printed it. And basically, the magazine was a way of actually delivering back the short stories to women in the Black Country. We left it in hairdressers, we left it in public libraries. And it was all free for people to take. So it's actually community arts at a very high level. And I'm very excited by that idea. And the filmmaking, really, is just part, an integral part of that. And an extension, if you like, of the stills, because some of these stories you couldn't tell with still photographs, you need to show the film.

Chris Killip  12:30 

I mean, I mean, it's very familiar to me, because I grew up in Britain, in a pub. So there's something about this humor that's very much in pub humor. But also, in England, in postcard and seaside humor, which, the British are quite vulgar. They like rude jokes, they like vulgarity. They like things to be upfront.

Martin Parr  12:50 

Don't Americans, then?

Chris Killip  12:50 

Not in the same way, not in the same way. I think this film is specifically British. And just a lot of the things in it, I don't see in America in the same way. That sort of good-humored vulgarity that's embraced. And sort of, and the way people joke about sex, in a very open way, in Britain, I never see in America in quite that way. It's just a different tradition of humor, too. But it goes back to Gilray. And it's got a whole sort of tradition in Britain. Like vulgar humor is very much part of the British personality, I think.

Martin Parr  13:27 

Yeah, yeah.

David Pendleton  13:30 

Can you talk a little bit about when you decided to start making moving images after making still images? I mean, you were just talking about certain stories

Martin Parr  13:38 

Yeah.

David Pendleton  13:39 

that couldn't be told.

Martin Parr  13:40 

That's right.

David Pendleton  13:40 

And I'm wondering what it is about having a moving image, or having a certain amount of time to let something happen.

Martin Parr  13:47 

Well, the first phase, you know, when I did Think of England, I worked with a company called Mosaic. I did many other films at that time. And these were predominantly commissioned by television, you see. And in the meantime, funnily enough, I then actually got full permission to do a film about the Freemasons. And I couldn't get that commissioned by a television company. So I thought, well, what's the point? You know, because the Freemasons suddenly had a PR exercise where they wanted to make it much more open, so actually granted permission to do this, and they wouldn't commission it. I was really puzzled by this, because I thought this was an incredible scoop, to have this possibility. So I sort of gave up on film. Then I did a feature film with a comedian friend of mine, and then forgot about it. And then when I walked into the sweet factory, and you can go online on YouTube and see Teddy Gray’s, if you go to my site, martinparr.com, you can go to "film," and you can get a lead to the Teddy Gray... So this is a sweet factory, which is in Dudley, which is also part of the Black Country. And when I went there with Emma that first day, I just said to her, “This is such an amazing place! We have to make a film.” And that's the thing that got me back into filmmaking. The trouble with television now is that it's so overproduced and so exact, so much, that they insist on music being laid on throughout a whole of a documentary, you know. And for example, Emma, who is the producer of this, she did come and see a rough cut of this particular film. But the previous film we made, I mean, this is quite extraordinary. When we went to do the grading, the executive producer hadn't seen the film. Which was probably unique.

David Pendleton  13:47 

Yeah.

Martin Parr  13:47 

And they were amazed, at the company that were doing the grading, and I went down, just to have a look. And she hadn't been to see it, because she just trusted me entirely to make the film that I wanted to make.

David Pendleton

Right.

Martin Parr

So it's much more difficult now within television.

David Pendleton

Um hmm.

Martin Parr

So this is why, although we're now trying to sell, for example, this to the BBC, and they're interested, and they're trying to find a slot for it for this Christmas, or we may have to put it up for next Christmas. And we did cut it to fifty-nine minutes, which is the exact time that the BBC want for it, say at BBC Four, which is probably the most suitable channel to show this. We did cut it to that exactly. We made it on our terms, rather than actually making it on the terms that television lays down. So it's a very important process to keep the integrity of what you want to do. And now in the future, I'd like to do more films, it's just that I'm so busy doing other things that I get distracted.

David Pendleton  16:09 

So Think of England and the early films, then, were commissioned by television, and this was commissioned by an arts center?

Martin Parr  16:16 

Exactly.

David Pendleton  16:17 

And have you thought about working for a theatrical context?

Martin Parr  16:22 

I wouldn't want to make a fiction film, but I wouldn't mind making a feature-length documentary, if I can find the right subject. That's the thing, is finding the right subject, and the right time, the right time to do it.

David Pendleton  16:35 

But I mean, a lot of photographers that I mentioned before, who have gone into filmmaking often eventually turned to fiction.

Martin Parr 16:41 

Yes.

David Pendleton 16:41 

And I’m wondering if you have–

Martin Parr  16:42 

But I just don't fancy it, because I'm too addicted to real life. It's too interesting. You know, why would you create it, when you can just film it for real?

David Pendleton  16:50 

Right. Right. I also wonder if you don't find that there's maybe a different tone in your work between the still images and the films. I mean, I was looking at the book that was on sale earlier today for Think of England, which seemed a bit more pointed and sharp.

Martin Parr  17:08 

Yes. It's quite different, even though they have the same–

David Pendleton  17:10 

and more satirical.

Martin Parr  17:10 

they share the same title, and

David Pendleton  17:12 

Exactly.

Martin Parr  17:12 

they came at around the same time, it's quite a different body of work. Yes. I mean, now the pictures I'm doing within England are probably more, a little bit more mellow. That was very sort of graphic, that particular

David Pendleton  17:23 

Right.

Martin Parr  17:23 

Because you have phases of language, that you explore things with. So the language in the still pictures in the Think of England book is very different to the film.

Chris Killip  17:34 

And film has many contradictory complications, which the still image doesn't. So when you're looking at somebody, you can see them often in many different ways. It's not just the specific still, and that's it.

David Pendleton  17:46 

Exactly.

Chris Killip  17:47 

And so it becomes a fuller picture, in many ways.

David Pendleton  17:49 

Well, that's what I was sort of getting at. Because it's kind of like what you were talking about when you talking about the television program on taste.

Chris Killip  17:55 

Yeah. Yeah.

David Pendleton  17:55 

That at the beginning of an episode, you know, it'd be very easy to laugh at a person. And then after a while, you're not really laughing at them anymore. And I think a similar, in a way, thing happens when you watch Turkey and Tinsel. At first, the whole thing seems a little tacky and silly. Then after a while, by the end we're actually quite fond of these people. And so I'm wondering about this within the, within the still image versus the moving image. If there isn't, the more time that you spend with somebody, the more...

Martin Parr  18:19 

Oh, inevitably, you know, you get to know people and you like them. I like people, full stop. Although many people will accuse me of being a cynic, and exploitative, and various sorts of things. I actually think that, you know, within the sort of spectrum of Magnum, I'm one of the more humanitarian.

[LAUGHTER]

But, you know, people would actually regard me as being the exact opposite.

David Pendleton  18:39 

Right.

Martin Parr  18:40 

You know, I'd be regarded, you know, like Cartier-Bresson famously said about me once, that I come from a different planet

[LAUGHTER]

So, you know, within the humanitarian tradition of Magnum, I'm regarded as the exploitative cynic. Which is interesting.

David Pendleton  18:56 

Yes.

[LAUGHTER]

David Pendleton

Well, I mean, that's something that comes up, I mean, you know, I mean, Diane Arbus had similar criticisms.

Martin Parr  19:01 

Yes.

David Pendleton  19:02 

And, also Errol Morris, the filmmaker. I mean, a lot of his early films, there was a similar question. It's always a question when you, when you show a documentary, when you show a slice of life to a group of people, and people are laughing, there's always this question of, am I laughing at these people or with them, etc.?

Martin Parr  19:17 

Well, that's why it was so important for us to make sure that the first audience we showed it to were the people in the film.

David Pendleton  19:22 

Right.

Martin Parr  19:22 

And they laughed a lot.

David Pendleton  19:24 

Um hmm. [LAUGHS]

Martin Parr  19:25 

And that was really encouraging.

Chris Killip  19:27 

I also think the difficulty for Martin in filmmaking is, it's hard to have the same control you have over when you're making still photographs, and you're working on your own, and you can do exactly what you want. And film is much more complicated than, particularly because of the finance, about other things getting imposed on you.

Martin Parr  19:47 

Well it’s complicated because, you know, I mean, I look at tonight, and I think god, what a screw-up that shot was, and if only, you know, why are there mics in here. And it's just annoying. You know, sometimes you just have to use the footage. But then, of course, we all know that the process of editing, in film, is so incredibly important.

Chris Killip  20:02 

Yeah.

Martin Parr  20:03 

And I was very lucky, in both sets of filming. I had one editor in my first phase, and then now I've got a very good editor. And I don't even have to do the rushes now. I hand him the whole material, and he starts to make

Chris Killip  20:12 

The assembly.

Martin Parr  20:16 

correlation, assembly. And I go along, and of course, through maybe six meetings, we work it out. So unlike some filmmakers, who have sat with their editor, day in, day out. And what you do realize, of course, and we all know this, that editing films is so much a skill, and so complicated, and so incredible, so, how you can change the tone so dramatic. Whilst editing stills is relatively straightforward.

Chris Killip  20:40 

Yeah, it's a much simpler task. And you're very used to doing that.

Martin Parr  20:43 

Yes.

Chris Killip  20:43 

The still edit.

Martin Parr  20:43 

It's like, the skills, and the challenge. I mean, it’s mind-boggling. I mean, it's mind-boggling how difficult making films is. And that's one of the things I love about it is, it's a real challenge.

Chris Killip  20:53 

Alfred Guzzetti, who teaches here, always said to me, “When someone shows a film, the audience should stand up beforehand and clap, because the person finished the film.”

[LAUGHTER]

Chris Killip  21:04 

Which, you know what he, you know what he means by that.

David Pendleton  21:06 

Yeah, yeah.

Chris Killip  21:07 

It's such a feat to actually finish the damn thing. Good or bad, to finish it is an amazing feat. Yeah.

David Pendleton  21:14 

Well, what about you, Chris? Have you made films? Are you interested in making moving image work? Films? Videos?

Chris Killip  21:19 

Ah, it's never come... I'm much more at ease alone, much less sociable, in many ways, than Martin. And it's never, never been, never happened. I've been involved with a film company, when I lived in Newcastle, but I didn't want to be with them when they're filming. I was sort of like, you know, we had a strange sort of relationship. And they made a film based on my work, where I'd been, and came back later to make a film. But I didn't want to be involved in filming with other people. I find it difficult, like Martin, to delegate. Like an editor would do this to me. And I would... I mean, I find that just emotionally difficult. Martin's much more pragmatic. Martin's a very pragmatic person, you know. He will be better able to utilize somebody [with] expertise than I would be able to. He can seize the opportunity in a much more detached way than I can. You know, for the common good.

David Pendleton  22:23 

But how big a crew were you working with? Literally, it was just you and a sound person is, is that right?

Martin Parr  22:27 

Yeah, basically, and the sound person did quite a lot of the cutaways. I mean, I don't know if you could spot the difference between my filming and the cutaways that Andrew did.

David Pendleton  22:34 

Only things like, when we see the bus from outside drive by, I'm assuming that...

Martin Parr  22:38 

Yeah, yeah, he did those later on. Yeah, yeah.

David Pendleton  22:40 

On a different bus ride, I assume.

Martin Parr  22:41 

Yes. And he set up the GoPro, and such like. You can see that occasionally. So yes, it was just the three of us, which is a really good, tight team. So Emma, who is doing all the organization, talking to people. And Andrew and I, and I don't even know, for example, what camera I used. It wasn't a– I do know it wasn't a 35 mil one.

David Pendleton  22:49 

Right.

Martin Parr  22:58 

It was a Canon. I do know that. But I couldn't even tell you, I mean, this is bizarre, having a film director, supposed film director, who doesn't even know what camera he uses.

David Pendleton  23:10 

Right.

Martin Parr  23:10 

I must be unique there as well, I think, right?

David Pendleton  23:12 

[LAUGHS] Yeah, I think so.

Martin Parr  23:13 

It was like a Canon, basically.

David Pendleton  23:14 

Uh huh, uh huh. Well, it's hard to keep track nowadays,

Martin Parr  23:16 

Yes.

David Pendleton  23:16 

Because there's so many different– and they keep changing.

Martin Parr  23:18 

And everything was done automatically. And any technical problems, I just asked Andrew.

[LAUGHTER]

Martin Parr  23:23 

I was concentrating too much on trying to sort of interview people, and connect with people, and to try and frame the camera well.

David Pendleton  23:30 

Um hmm. Um hmm. Well, one reason that I asked this because you were talking about, you see these shots, you're like, Oh, you can see the mic there, etc. But one of the things that I think really anchors the film, and the same thing with, with Think of England, is that we hear your voice from behind the camera from time to time, and we can see them relating to you. Or the woman who kisses the sound guy at the end.

Martin Parr  23:47 

Yeah, that's right. And we decided to keep that in, because you know, we're here!

David Pendleton  23:50 

Yes.

Martin Parr  23:51 

And so that's why I don't get too bothered when I see a mic

David Pendleton  23:54 

Yes. No.

Martin Parr  23:55 

wander into the screen.

David Pendleton  23:56 

Exactly. Exactly. And nowadays, I mean, there's, you know, there's so much of contemporary documentary that's precisely about, maybe not as the main subject, but certainly, as a sort of a subject underneath, is the relationship on either side of the camera.

Chris Killip  24:10 

So are you thinking of other things that you might film? Are you, are you consciously plotting ahead, planning ahead?

Martin Parr  24:17 

Yeah, I mean, yes, I'd like to do more films. It's just finding the right subject. I'm doing stills about the Rhubarb Triangle this winter. Does anyone know here what the Rhubarb Triangle is?

Chris Killip  24:29 

I don't think, people know what

Martin Parr  24:30 

You know what rhubarb is. Right?

Chris Killip  24:31 

Yeah.

Martin Parr  24:31 

You have rhubarb in America. Just checking!

[LAUGHTER]

Martin Parr  24:35 

It might be banned, you know.

[LAUGHTER]

There's an area in, in England where they grow rhubarb. And it's between Wakefield, Harrogate, and Leeds. Okay? And rhubarb's an extraordinary vegetable, actually. Yes, it's, you think it's a fruit but it's a vegetable. And I'm going to do a series of photographs this winter, about rhubarb season, which is basically December through February. Because the following year, I'd like to make a film. Because I just think rhubarb, and the growing of rhubarb, and the extraordinary people there who do it. And they do things like they pick rhubarb with candlelight. It has to be visually interesting. And there's some great characters because it's a real Yorkshire, they all have a particularly northern twang, which is so inviting. And I spent many years living in Yorkshire. So that's something that I intend to do, not this winter, but the winter after. So this year, I'm doing stills. So I'll get to meet everybody, then I'll know much better. So it's really like a research trip with a camera. They call it “photography.” [LAUGHTER] And then next year I can make a film.

David Pendleton  25:37 

Well, I wanted to ask, particularly, I mean, I was struck, listening to the conversation this afternoon about the photobook, about the relationship, similarities and differences between a photobook and a film, right? Because I mean, in both cases, you could look at them as compilations of images, right? And two of the people that were mentioned, as sort of pioneers of the photobook, William Klein and Robert Frank, both went on to make films.

Martin Parr  26:00 

Yeah.

David Pendleton  26:01 

I'm wondering if you see any similarity there, between the project of making a photobook,...

Martin Parr  26:06 

Yes, because you could argue, you know, a photobook is a sort of midway between a novel and a film. And so I think they're all related. And it's about telling stories, as well, isn't it? I mean, the great thing about a book is it has a beginning and an end, and it should have a narrative. And a film, as you know, unless that is driven by the narrative, doesn't work, you know. And that's why it's very good to go on a journey, because the journey has a beginning, end, and you have to identify your characters and build them up. And, you know, it's good to have that sort of narrative-driven thing. So it's about storytelling. I mean, that's really what I'm doing is telling stories, whether it be through still photography or through, you know, through a film. In a sense, you could argue that a film is so much easier to tell a story because, in a sense, you know, unlike, say, a photography exhibition, or a book, where the visual still strength of the image is the driving force, here, with a film, for it to work, it's got to have that pounding narrative driving it forward all the time. You know? You want to know what happens, and all that.

Chris Killip

I was sitting in the cinema one night watching Andrei Rublev, Tarkovsky's film. And there came a point in that film, where the camera spins around the cell that the monk is living in, Andrei Rublev, and I nearly fell off my seat. Like, oh my god, it's all the same. Josef Koudelka has been brought up on Soviet cinema. Just like Tarkovsky. The woman who's the mother of my son, Markéta Luskačová, has been brought up on Soviet cinema. So there's Vertov, and there's... It's just in them, and the vision was similar. I was so shocked at this moment, that you could see their upbringing, I could see their upbringing, and the diet of films that they looked at when they were young. And I think all photographers are influenced very heavily by cinema. I've films that knock around in my head all the time are films like Night of the Hunter, which is such a vivid visual film, such an amazing film. But the imagery is within me, I never consciously make a picture that mimics that. But it's in there, somehow. And most photographers have this big, obvious, obvious influence from cinema. You know, it's just there.

David Pendleton  28:23 

Yes. I mean, I think it's perhaps safe to say, I wonder that it might flow both ways, too. In other words, I mean, there are filmmakers who've been influenced by the look of either fashion photography or photojournalism, over the course of history.

Martin Parr  28:37 

Absolutely, yeah.

Chris Killip  28:37 

Yeah. When I saw the film, not that long ago, is it A History of Violence?

David Pendleton  28:39 

Um hmm.

Chris Killip  28:44 

I knew exactly what the cameraman had been told to look at. It was William Eggleston. The whole film, it’s like a tribute to the way William Eggleston sees. The opening shot looked like a very good Eggleston photograph. And the whole film is imbibed with Eggleston. You know he gave the cameraman, the director, the Eggleston books to look at. And he recreated, in this film, the Eggleston look. It was amazing, amazingly, cleverly done. And, but such a big influence on the film. Not credited or acknowledged.

David Pendleton  29:10 

Right,

Chris Killip  29:10 

But it was there.

David Pendleton  29:11 

Sure. Sure. Well, I mean, there are moments like Kubrick's tribute to Diane Arbus in The Shining, for instance.

Chris Killip  29:17 

Well Kubrick was a photographic prodigy as a teenager.

David Pendleton  29:22 

Right.

Chris Killip  29:23 

And he was photographing Life magazine, or Look magazine, when he was sixteen or seventeen. Kubrick brought in his hero to do the stills on Dr. Strangelove. His hero was Weegee, the great American photographer of New York in the 1950s. And, Peter Sellars always claimed that his character was based on the eccentricities of Weegee. You know, so there's a sort of circular motion going on there. But Kubrick wanted to, you know, wanted to give Weegee money. You know, he brought him to London to be the still photographer, just because he was a hero from his childhood.

David Pendleton  29:56 

Right. Well, and you can see Weegee's influence on

Chris Killip  29:59 

Sure.

David Pendleton  30:00 

Plenty of film noir, as well. Plus, Weegee, didn't Weegee himself make a film?

Chris Killip  30:04 

Uhhhh....isn’t there…?

David Pendleton  30:06 

Maybe a short? I'm not sure.

Chris Killip  30:07 

Yeah. And there's a film based on Weegee too, I think.

David Pendleton  30:10 

Yes. I'm sure there are plenty of other photographers who made films, whose film work is not well known.

Now, I had another question in there somewhere. I mean, there's also this, a new film, I'm thinking of this new film called Maidan. Because you mentioned earlier today, like photographs of protests and photobooks built around protest. And there's this Ukrainian filmmaker, Sergei Loznitsa, who's coming in a couple of weeks, which is why I'm thinking of this film, who documented the upheaval around the elections in Kiev. And it's this series of these monumental, almost all static shots.

Martin Parr

Oh, right.

David Pendleton

And it reminded me a little bit of the photobook, to some extent. Like trying to get sort of the telling moment, and then letting it play out. Or to get the telling... Anyway, it'll be fascinating to ask him, too.

But maybe it's time to turn it over to questions from the audience, if you have one. Can you just, hang on, we'll get a mic to you. Steven? Raise your hand higher, and Steven will pass a mic down to you. And then we'll get to you, sir.

Audience 1  31:13 

It seemed to me that music played a very important role in this film. And since I haven't seen your other films, I wonder if it does in those, or it will be in the rhubarb film?

Martin Parr  31:25 

In, sorry, in the which, pardon?

Audience 1  31:26 

Music!

Chris Killip  31:27 

Music.

Martin Parr  31:27 

Oh, yes. I mean, we

David Pendleton  31:27 

In the rhubarb film.

Martin Parr  31:29 

Oh, yeah. Good, I haven't even thought about that. Because it's usually the editor who's very good at finding the right music to go with the film.

Audience 1  31:39 

Because I wondered if all the music in this–

Martin Parr  31:41 

In all four of these recent films, we've dropped music in. But we've done it very selectively, because we want to give the film, you know, we want to give the music the right impact, at the right time. And he's come up with ideas, and we’ve fine-tuned it. And it's worked very well. Of course, because it's Christmas, there's so much music available, you know. So it was just a question of finding the right track, and then clearing it, you know. So, "Coming Home for Christmas," was just the perfect song. So, you know, we kept, you know, we kept finding the right thing for the right place. So we worked on that together. But he mainly came up with the suggestions. He was very good on that front.

Chris Killip  32:17 

I'm trying to imagine the music for the rhubarb film, and I can't!

[LAUGHTER]

Audience 1  32:22 

Well, there might be, like you know, they have their own song.

Martin Parr  32:24 

Perhaps, is there any famous song with rhubarb in? I mean, we'll have to find out, I suppose.

David Pendleton  32:29 

I don't remember music being so important in Think of England.

Martin Parr  32:32 

No, that was very music-free. Yeah. No, this is a new thing, in this last [AUDIO CUTS OFF]

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