Audio transcription
For more interviews and talks, visit the Harvard Film Archive Visiting Artists Collection page.
John Quackenbush 0:00
February 24, 2013. The Harvard Film Archive screened Bad Blood. This is the audio recording of the Q&A and discussion that followed. Participating are HFA Director Haden Guest and filmmaker Leos Carax.
David Pendleton 0:17
Please welcome, with Haden Guest, Leos Carax.
[APPLAUSE]
Haden Guest 0:39
Well, thank you, Leos, for this really extraordinary and vital film. A film with such incredible energy. And yesterday, you know, the conversation came. There was this idea, which I think is so true of your films, how they reach into the deep well of film history to rediscover, to reignite, to reinvent past traditions that may have been abandoned or forgotten. And in that regard, I'm fascinated by the magic in the film and Alex's talents as a magician in Mauvais Sang. And the way in which he seems to remind us of Georges Méliès, you know. Especially in the scene where he is helping Juliette Binoche to stop crying. And he's doing these incredible tricks, which are both, like Méliès’ cinema, theatrically simple, yet richly cinematic. And I was wondering if you could talk about magic in this film, and perhaps, Georges Méliès.
Leos Carax 1:58
So this was my second film. I have never seen it again. I know it would probably be the most difficult to see for me again. I've never seen any of my films again. But this one because it's probably the film where I was almost too much in love with cinema. So that's the memory I have. I have the memory of it's like making a film on coke. You know, you should not make a film on coke. I was making the film out of love of cinema. So it's probably very much composed. And, yeah, you're talking about magic. It’s this idea that cinema is like, you know, these little trains for kids, you know? And after that, I stopped seeing films. After this film. And I think I made almost every film after that against this one, in a way.
Haden Guest 3:26
Well, let's speak about silent cinema, because obviously you have such a deep love of silent cinema. And this was something that was kindled when you were watching films. Now when you, in this period, this intense period of cinephilia, where you were spending days at the Cinémathèque Française. I was wondering if you could maybe speak to what was important to you. What did you discover in silent cinema? Why was it the silent cinema that you were most drawn to?
Leos Carax 3:59
I think that every, I mean, young people who want to make films should watch silent cinema. The primitive strength of cinema is there. And it's that strength that we have to reinvent over and over through different means, because cinema loses strength. Cinema, in a way, is a miracle. That it exists. It's the only art that had to be invented. And this invention, which is amazing, loses its power. Like young people today don't react the same as people, the first people, who watched film. So filmmakers have to reinvent this power. This power of amazement. And they have to reinvent it over and over again. Especially at certain times, like going from silent films to talking films. Or today with digital. And I guess in my case, I discovered cinema when I was after school. When I was sixteen, seventeen. And I moved to Paris. And I was very silent myself. So I guess the connection, you know, being alone in a theater, which I didn't know anybody in Paris. And confronted with this, these big screens and this silence, was very powerful for me. We still have this invention in cinema. It’s bigger than anything afterwards, I think. They had to invent everything. So every film is experimental, until the ’30s. Every film. Every single film.
Haden Guest 6:18
There's the scene where Denis Lavant just hurls himself furiously, pyrotechnically, through the streets to the tune of David Bowie. It’s such an extraordinary scene. There we see Muybridge’s proto-cinematic running man. And I was wondering if we could talk about this scene and in the context of this idea of revitalizing it. Giving a type of rebirth to cinema in its purest form.
Leos Carax 6:52
I think it also comes from the fact that before I discovered cinema I wanted to live with music. I still think that the most beautiful life you can have is a life with music. And whether you're a composer or a singer. Because composers, I mean, I'm not a composer, but I guess a composer has to hear what he composes before-. I mean, he has to hear it. I always envied that. And in my films, I always tried to find the same joy that there is in music through editing. And in each film, I've tried with music also, to give that sense of joy, I think, in all these first films. I made three films in the ’80s. This is the second one. And it's kind of a trilogy with the same actors. And each film has a musical scene. And it actually, it's all-. Each time it's Bowie. That was, I think, what I was trying to do.
Haden Guest 8:24
Well, thinking as well about film history. About, again, these traditions. Something that's so extraordinary in your film is the casting and is your use of these actors, who themselves embody film history. Here we have Serge Reggiani, you know, the great actor from these gangster films of Jean-Pierre Melville. We have, of course, Michel Piccoli, as in your newest, amazing film, Holy Motors, we have Edith Scob. And I was wondering if you could speak a bit about what these veteran actors with this history, with this resonance, mean to you and to your cinema? And speak maybe about the decision, for instance, to cast Piccoli and Reggiani here?
Leos Carax 9:15
I think it meant more when I was young than today. I guess it's exciting for you. You know, for a young director to have in front of his camera someone he’s seen when-. I mean, Piccoli, you know, we've seen in France, I've seen all my life. In bad films, in great films. He’s made so many films. That's what I'm saying about the film when I say I have trouble with the film. I mean, you shouldn't choose an actor for that reason, but I did, at that time, And Reggiani is different because I mostly knew him as a singer and an actor. And as a kid, I knew him mostly as a singer. And he was, at the time, he hadn't acted for a long time. He was a very touching man with alcohol problems. Very shy. And I mean, he only had to do that in one day or two days. But it's one of my, I mean, it's a big memory for me.
Haden Guest 10:38
Edith Scob? I mean, maybe we could speak a little bit about Edith Scob in Holy Motors, because it seems to me she's the sort of anchor of the film. Her certain presence there. And the way in which she dons this mask, which so clearly brings her, almost, back to the world of Les yeux sans visage.
Leos Carax 10:59
Well, Edith Scob I met on my third film. The one after that. The Lovers on the Bridge. She was in the film with her lover of the time. Actually, it’s the same lover. She still has the same lover. A composer. So I needed a handsome couple at the beginning of the film. Just one scene, to drive in Paris at night. Because they are lovers and they’re kissing or whatever, they don't see, they’re running on Denis Lavant’s leg. But then when I edited the film there was only her hair left and her hand left in the film. So I promised her I would make another film with her one day. And that happened twenty years later, with Holy Motors. And by that time I liked her very much in real life. I mean, so I had almost forgotten about her being in this. Her past, this cinematic past. And it came back during the shooting, because, first of all, she offered me the mask he was wearing when she was twenty years old in the film Eyes Without a Face. And I felt like this filmmaker she had made a film with—Franju. That was kind of a ghost on the shooting. That's when at the end I offered her the mask in the film also.
Haden Guest 12:41
Your first three films --this is the second. I mean, the first three feature films—this is the second feature film—are united by this almost delirious romanticism. This idea of absolute love. Of amour fou. Of couples bonded together in almost impossible ways. I was wondering if you could speak about this romanticism. And from where it came and how it inspired you at this time. Because there's a real change, I think, by the time we get to Pola X.
Leos Carax 13:20
I wouldn't know where it comes from. Being young, I guess, mostly. At the time I was, I mean, these three films were made with the same actor. And the actresses were my girlfriend at the time. So that probably helped.
[LAUGHTER]
Leos Carax 13:47
But the other three films are, I mean, the first one is called Boy Meets Girl, but each film could have been called Boy Meets Girl. They're all about a boy trying to go towards a girl. I don't know what to say.
Haden Guest 14:10
Well, let's go back in time a little bit because I'd love to know-. You began, you had a very brief period as a sort of apprenticeship of sorts, as a critic. And I was wondering, in what ways do you think your time writing, albeit briefly, for Cahiers du Cinéma and being part of that milieu may have shaped your work as a filmmaker? What ways was that a formative or important experience for you?
Leos Carax 14:42
For me, I think not at all. In French history, of course, many, many filmmakers came from being critics. But in my case, no. I was a critic by accident. A few months, not even a year, I think. And I was not gifted. It was not my thing. I don't think it had any impact on my films.
Haden Guest 15:16
But in terms of, again, thinking of this tradition of critics becoming filmmakers. You know, your work is so often discussed in the context of the Nouvelle Vague. And this film, I think, in particular seems to resonate with the cinema of the Nouvelle Vague in many ways. One of the ways being the way it deals with genre. The way you jumped from gangster to science fiction to love story. And I was wondering if you could speak maybe about what the Nouvelle Vague meant to you at the time you made this film?
Leos Carax 15:51
Well, mostly they would, from all the cinema I had seen and loved, they were the only ones alive, you know? Because all the filmmakers I liked were dead, mostly. And only the New Wave, whether it's the French New Wave or other New Waves in Europe, these people were, I mean, I was twenty and they were fifty-years-old. They were still making movies. So that was important to me, to know that some people are still alive, making films I liked. And so I feel that in these two first films, I kind of pay the debt of love to filmmakers, dead or alive. And so I think you see, it's obvious. You see the love for silent films, Russian films, American films, New Wave films in there.
Haden Guest 16:59
Let's take some questions from the audience. And I'm sure there must be questions. If you just raise your hand and then you’ll wait for a microphone to come from one side. This gentleman in the middle has a question, right here.
Audience 1 17:14
Hi. First, thanks for coming tonight. I'm just wondering, for this film, how much backstories do you have for characters, because at certain moments, I was just wondering, like, about their motivations for certain actions. So, like, I got a little bit confused. So I'm just wondering, do you have each character's backstory before you start writing the script? Or, like, you just have the story first, then develop your characters?
Leos Carax 17:50
I wouldn't remember specifically for this film, but I guess it's the same for each film. Except, of course, because this is my second film, I think—and I imagined it right after finishing my first film —I think, basically, what the idea was to-. Let's say, I had filmed the same actor in the film before and I thought I hadn't seen how beautifully he moved. In my first time he was quite static and talkative. So I decided to go the opposite way, I guess. To have him quite silent and very physical. But you know, I'm not a storyteller. I write a script when I need money, but before that, I don’t write as a writer. I first try to invent a world. From this case, it was also a bit like Holy Motors. I was saying, it's a bit of a science-fiction world. It's not exactly. This strange sickness and different things that are not realistic. So I try to invent a world and I start with a few feelings. Maybe, like a composer, I try to write a score, rather than a script. I want to go from this feeling to this feeling. And so then that's how the characters come. That's how the story, if there is a story, comes.
Haden Guest 19:49
Other questions? We have a question all the way in the back. Right there.
Audience 2 19:56
I just had a question, when you're talking about love, and also looking back on these films, your first three films. Do you have thoughts about the way that the movies, both the characters in the movies and maybe the movies themselves, treat the women, or you know, Juliette Binoche as a woman?
Leos Carax 20:22
How my films-? Oh, in retrospect.
Haden Guest 20:25
Looking back at them today. Yeah.
Leos Carax 20:28
I never look back, frankly.
[LAUGHTER]
No, I should think about it probably.
[LAUGHTER]
But I never have. So that's very hard. I don't know. I don't know. In each film, I guess I put all my doubts, I put all my fears and my questions, and then I move on. I think looking back would be difficult.
Haden Guest 21:34
Let's take a question right here. Actually, if you could speak into the mic, so everybody can hear?
Audience 3 21:42
Oh, sorry. What kind of qualities do you look for when you work with a cinematographer? And could you talk about the cinematographer of this film? It was really good.
Leos Carax 21:57
Well, when I started making films I hadn't studied films and I had never been on a shoot. So I had really no idea what a cinematographer was. So for this first film—no this is my second film. For my first film I met different DPs and it was just human relation. I mean, I chose the guy I liked the best. I didn’t ask to see what he had done. And he became my best friend, like a brother. And for ten years we saw each other every day, and we made three films together. It's hard. It's like working on music on a film. It's very hard to find a language. How do you talk about music or how do you talk about images before you've made them? We spent lots of time together, but we didn't really talk that much about, you know, specifically. I would send him images. Or you know, reproductions of stuff? Or we would try stuff. We would do lots of-. Because I didn't know anything about anything... But that's still true today. I make lots and lots of tests. I try like, well, we don't try films anymore, because it's all digital. But we used to try every stock of film, every lens, every camera, after each film, again and again. And that's how I learned making films, actually, by all these tests. But I think I was mostly lucky, because it turned out that he was, to me, the best DP I ever met.
Haden Guest 24:13
What made him so great?
Leos Carax 24:16
I have no idea. He was a simple Frenchman from a simple background. He was very feminine, maybe that helped. He was very stubborn. He was more than a DP, I would say he produced the films, almost, with me. Then, at the time, I didn't talk to people much. He was almost the only one I talked to. And it was not until the third film, because we have lots of trouble on the third film, that, suddenly, I had to talk to people. Lawyers and money people, bankers. But, before that, I was very protected by him and by my producer, who produced these three films. But where did his talent come from? I don't know.
Haden Guest 25:19
A question right here, David. On the edge.
David Pendleton 25:26
I'm just wondering if you think of yourself, at all, in a particularly French tradition. And we've spoken about, you mentioned the French New Wave. You've talked about silent cinema, a sort of international silent cinema. But there are also French filmmakers in between the silent era and the New Wave. I mean, Cocteau, notably, who comes up in this film. Or maybe also Vigo and Renoir, one can see certain similarities. I'm wondering if you think of yourself, at all, as a French filmmaker, or if that designation has any resonance for you at all.
Leos Carax 26:04
Well, I feel, when I travel, people think I'm very French. When I'm in France they don't really know what I am. I was born in France, and I was raised in France. I mean, none of my grandparents are French. But that's where I lived. And I, obviously, I do like a part of French cinema history. But I mean, it's strange for me to talk about that, because as I said, I used to see lots of films and be in this culture of cinephile, I guess. I'm not anymore, at all. If I see myself going to see all these films, I basically went to see what was showing at the Cinematheque, whatever it was, you know. So that was not more French films than Russian or American or other films.
Haden Guest 27:20
We have a question right here in the front.
Audience 4 27:27
You mentioned that you think a beautiful life is a life with music, but one thing that stands out to me in your movies, as much as the music, is the noise. Like, you know, the traffic, the telephones, the sounds of things in the woods. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on how you approach that element of sound when you're editing a movie together?
Leos Carax 27:54
Yeah, basically like music, but I guess everybody does. On a set, nobody cares about the sound. I mean, the poor sound guy’s like, he annoys everyone, because you only notice him when he takes some time. In the beginning, when I started making films, I was not interested. I wanted to record the sound and then work after, in post production, on the sound. I got more and more interested. But I think I would like to, if I had money and time, I would probably make all the sound afterwards. And spend lots of time doing that. I was never able to do that. So it's a compromise. And sounds don't come the same way as images, for some reason. When I was saying that composers must hear what they compose. I don't hear the film before. I can see parts of it. I can vaguely have a-. But I don't hear it before. So it mostly happens while editing.
Haden Guest 29:47
A question right there. Let’s do this gentleman in the glasses and then get the young lady, yeah.
Audience 5 30:00
Yes. Is there anything you'd like to say about the very last shot in the film we just watched? I mean, even just what was going through your head when you designed it?
Haden Guest 30:11
Juliette Binoche taking flight.
Leos Carax 30:21
From what I remember, we shot different ends. At least two, maybe three. All at the same place, at that small airport. And this one was kind of improvised, like, yeah. And so of course, when you shoot that, because you don't know what it's exactly gonna look like. You know, she's running, the camera’s going lower, the speed is changing. And I'd given her my sweater, which was, I think, black and white. And we discovered what it looked like when we watched the dailies. I just know it. I don't really remember. I remember thinking it's strange, because before that he dies, and realizing that filming Denis dying, surrounded by the people of his life, because they were all there. It was like a dream or a nightmare, you know. When you think of dying, you want people to be there above you. And it's kind of a family around him. And I thought, “Okay, I want the girl, I want Juliette to try to go towards him. Not to die, but-.” And I had this idea: she's at an airport, she's gonna try to fly. And that's what we did.
Haden Guest 32:36
So yes, right here.
Audience 6 32:41
Bonsoir. Merci pour vos films. Thank you for your films. I just have a question with, well, your relationship with Denis Lavant. And who looks more like the other? Is it you that would end up looking like him? Or is it him looking like you? Or how did that evolve with time? Like in films, actually. Merci.
Haden Guest 33:06
Actually, I'm sorry, we couldn't really hear what you said. Could you speak more clearly?
Audience 6 33:09
Oh, excuse me. Talking about your relationship with Denis Lavant? Did you end up looking like him or him looking like you? And how did it evolve through films and time? Merci.
Leos Carax 33:32
We were born at the same time. We’re the same size. I never thought we look alike but-.
Haden Guest 33:48
Not exactly.
Leos Carax 33:51
On the last film, the Holy Motors film, in one of the segments he plays a father of a young girl. He has three daughters. In real life he has three daughters. I have a daughter. So imagine this father with his daughter. And I gave him my clothes to wear for the part.
Haden Guest 34:20
He’s wearing this, isn't he? Wearing your hat?
Leos Carax 34:24
Yeah, he's wearing this hat. And he’s wearing, yes, he’s wearing my clothes. And so that's when I realized. My dog was on the set. And my dog became completely confused.
[LAUGHTER]
Leos Carax 34:44
He didn't know who to follow anymore. So I guess that's something.
Haden Guest 34:54
The question at the very, very back.
Audience 7 35:02
Hello and thank you for the films. I just had a question specifically about The Lovers on the Bridge. Have you been accused of romanticizing abusive relationships? And if so, how do you respond to that?
Haden Guest 35:21
How would you respond to that?
Leos Carax 35:24
Yeah. Yes. Also, because the film went way over budget, so that became a scandal in itself. Yeah, people didn't understand it. Making a film about homeless people that would cost a lot of money. Well, you say romanticizing. In my mind, the film had to move between two feelings and two, almost, if you were-. Well you saw the film, there's almost a documentary part in the beginning. And then it moves to complete fiction, where homeless people can dance and do weird things. I was trying, as I said yesterday, I think that at the beginning of the film, before ideas, before characters, there are feelings. In this film, there were two main feelings. I'm gonna have trouble to say it in English, but I'll try. One feeling is, in French we say irrémédiable.
Haden Guest 37:00
Irremediable?
Leos Carax 37:01
Does that exist?
Haden Guest 37:02
Yeah.
Leos Carax 37:04
Okay. So this one. Irremediable? Because when I moved to Paris, as I said, I didn't know anyone and I walked a lot. And, in a way, the only connection I had was through the eyes of homeless people. Of course, I was never homeless, myself. But the film is not about-. It's about misery, but our misery. Not so much social misery. Man's misery, let’s say. So I was trying to [INAUDIBLE] and then I met a lot of them, because I spent a year doing this documentary part. They almost never get better. I mean, once you live in the streets, it's so hard. It's so humiliating. It's so hard, that they go down and they lose pieces of themselves. And the other feeling, which in French is called l'inespéré. I’m not sure, in English, I don't think you would have-.
Haden Guest 38:30
The unexpected? L'inespéré? Unhoped for?
Leos Carax 38:33
Yes. Yeah, it’s something that you can't even hope for, but that happens. So I was trying to construct a film on this bridge, going from one feeling to the other. I don't know if I answered the question.
Haden Guest 38:58
Very much. So. Any last questions? Let's take Saul Levine, in the back.
Audience 8 39:09
Well, I guess before you leave, I'm sure I-.
Haden Guest 39:12
Actually, if you could hold the mic up a bit closer.
Audience 8 39:15
Yeah. Before you leave, I'm sure many of us would like to know what you see you're doing next. And also if you have any thoughts, you've talked a lot about the differences of working in digital. So, beyond, also, your own personal plans, how do you see cinema, in general, today?
Leos Carax 39:55
So, about a new project?
Haden Guest 39:57
New projects, perhaps, in the US or elsewhere. Yeah.
Leos Carax 40:01
I don't have a new project. It’s too soon. There are many films I did not make. But it doesn't mean I'm going to make them now, because once you make a film you’re not in the same place. So you have to move to a new place. I don't know what that new place is. And the other question was?
Haden Guest 40:25
The other question is just the question about the digital. You know, you've made a film now-.
Leos Carax 40:29
I'm gonna go on making digital.
Haden Guest 40:33
How do you feel about that?
Leos Carax 40:36
I said yesterday, you know, I don't want to be nostalgic. So I'm angry.
[LAUGHTER]
Because this DP, who made this film you saw-. So after this third film we—like all the people on this third film, all these people I'd met when I was twenty years old—we separated. He moved to Hollywood. My producer died. Other people didn't talk to each other anymore. And because I had started with him, my experience of film has very much to do with him. Then he died in Hollywood ten years ago. And I thought, “Well it’s okay, I'll move to digital because I will never find such a relationship again, anyway.” So it helped me move on. I didn't have the choice, really, because if I wanted to make a film, I couldn't find much money. So I had to do it in digital anyway. But it helped me move from film to digital. I don't like it. I don't think it's ready. I think it's ugly. But that's the only way I can work, so that's why I do.
Haden Guest 42:16
Let's just take one or two last questions. We’ll do it right here, in the front.
Audience 9 42:28
Thank you for your films. I would like to know how you get inspired. Is it just filming? Or editing? Working with actors? You talked about the world you imagine? You don't talk about any story? How do you match your visions? Just after the shoot, during? I don't know.
Leos Carax 42:57
That's a big problem. I mean, how do you go from one film to the other, is the big problem. If you're a storyteller, you have to find a good story. And that's enough, I guess. I'm not a storyteller, so I can’t do that. I never know what I need for the next film. What I need. Of course, I could call it inspiration. But that doesn't help, because I don't know what’s inspiration anyway. So it has to do with, I think, experience. You know, you have to live between films. After a film there's an exhaustion. There's this, often, you’re disappointed. There’s a time for that. And then you have to, mostly, whatever. Travel. Fall sick. Fall in love. Read. Meet people. And then you find out that you wait. I mean, I suppose that's how it happens. Coincidences. You know, you feel like you have an image, you have a feeling. Then you have maybe two images that stick. Two feelings you think you want to put in a film. And then you try to edit them together. Like, find what story could be, or what film could come out of these feelings and these images. Like, for Holy Motors, the last film. You know, I was impressed by these limousines and by the fact that they're very sexy, erotic and at the same time, very morbid. They look like a coffin. And that you don't own them, you rent them. So people rent them, usually young people. Why do they rent them? They rent them usually for a few hours to pretend they're rich or pretend they’re famous. They want to be seen, but at the same time, you can’t see in. You can see everybody watches these cars, but you can’t see inside of them. So it's like a bubble. It's a bit like the virtual world. You know, internet or something. They're creating avatars of themselves. So I'm interested in that. And then, I think, maybe I could have a character living in one of these limousines. And he wouldn’t just have one avatar, but he would move from one avatar to the other. That would be his job, he would have to travel from one life to the other. And that's how you construct something, I guess.
Haden Guest 45:59
Let's take one last question from Stephen Prina. In the back, right there.
Audience 10 46:08
The screening tonight coincided with the Academy Award broadcast. And I was wondering if you wanted to address the significance of that. Especially in light of, you know, recent comments about foreign language?
Leos Carax 46:27
Well, it's not my fault.
[LAUGHTER]
I didn’t choose the Oscar date or this date. What can I say? What can I say? I do feel the cinema, as I said, is a territory. And when I discovered it I wanted to explore this territory and to live there. Okay, so I call it an island. And sometimes I have the feeling, you know, I lived there. But in the real world, I don't feel I belong to cinema. And as this young man, I felt like an imposter, because I went to see producers and said, “I want to make this film and I know how to do it.” It was not true. I didn't know anything. Because I hadn't studied, and etc. But I still feel that way. I still feel that each, I mean, in a way, each film has felt like the first and the last one. And I still feel I don't belong. And I still feel kind of an imposter. I don't mind it. But, yeah, that's how it is.
Haden Guest 48:07
Well, here at the Harvard Film Archive you belong and you are always welcome. Please join me in thanking Leos Carax!
[APPLAUSE]
©Harvard Film Archive
