Saturday | November 8, 2014 7:00 pm

Maidan

Director in Person
$12 Special Event Tickets

Directed by Sergei Loznitsa.
Ukraine/Netherlands, 2014, digital video, color, 130 min.
Ukrainian with English subtitles.

Maidan impresses for both its invaluable footage from the frontlines of history and a masterful set of long takes, with a mostly static camera. Loznitsa’s latest feature film finds him returning to non-fiction after My Joy and In the Fog to document the so-called “Euromaidan” protests in Kiev’s Maidan Square. The occupation of the square began in November 2013, in opposition to Viktor Yanukovych’s decision not to sign a trade agreement with the European Union but to seek closer ties between the Ukraine and Russia, and culminated in the overthrow of his presidency in February 2014. Loznitsa presents the mounting unrest in a series of tableaux, emphasizing the collective aspect of the protests by eschewing close-ups. His masterful use of framing becomes increasingly impressive as the camera moves closer to the action even as violence erupts.

Maidan introduction and post-screening discussion with Haden Guest and Sergei Loznitsa. Read transcript

Audio transcription

John Quackenbush 0:00

November 8, 2014. The Harvard Film Archive screened Maidan. This is the audio recording of the introduction and the Q&A that followed. Participating are HFA Director Haden Guest and filmmaker Sergei Loznitsa.

Haden Guest 0:16

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Haden Guest. I'm Director of the Harvard Film Archive. I'm thrilled to welcome you to this very special screening of Maidan by Sergei Loznitsa. We're thrilled that Sergei can be with us tonight to discuss this epic and important film. This is the first in a larger retrospective dedicated to Loznitsa’s films. And over the course of the next few weeks, we'll have a chance to explore his truly extraordinary and visionary documentary and fiction filmmaking.

Sergei Loznitsa made a name for himself first as a documentarian, working out of the St. Petersburg Documentary Studio, one of the sort of legendary sites for documentary production in Russia. And it was there that he made a series of quite exquisitely poetic, yet sharply political films, a number of which we're going to be able to see in the coming weeks. And these early films revealed both his consummate skills as a documentarian, but also his interest in a kind of cinematic portraiture, an interest which, as you'll see, returns with truly epic dimensions in Maidan. But it was after, it was afterwards, though, before Maidan, that he made two really quite, I think, unusual and remarkable fiction films, beginning with My Happiness, a film that we'll be seeing tomorrow night, which offers a mesmerizing—oh, it's a kind of mesmerizing road movie into the dark heart of contemporary Russia. Sergei Loznitsa will be with us tomorrow night to discuss that film. And then his second feature was the critically acclaimed In the Fog, which is a period piece set during World War Two in Ukraine, and offers a study of the confusion between collusion and patriotism. And with his new film, Maidan, Loznitsa offers us perhaps his most urgent film. This is, of course, a chronicle of the events that unfolded in Ukraine, starting in November of last year, and came to a close in February this year. So events of still very recent memory, and still of undecided magnitude, in terms of what will happen next. It's thanks to Sergei, thanks to this film, that I think we can really contemplate and question the events that happened in a really unusual way. Because with his film, and with his courageous camerawork, where he's planted his camera in the middle of the action, we're able to both, to be there, immersively, at the same time to have a kind of contemplative distance.

I spoke of cinematic portraiture. You'll see in the film Maidan, what's so amazing, I think, is the kind of epic tableaux that he creates, and the ways in which we study face after face after face. And ways in which the magnitude of this massive protest really comes to its truest dimensions on the big screen.

I want to thank our friends at Colgate University. We worked together with them. They're our co-sponsors on this program, on Sergei’s visit, and on this retrospective, together with the Flaherty Foundation. I also want to thank the Harvard College Library. This is a collaboration with them as well, and also with the Blavatnik Archive Foundation, who sponsored a very important exhibit at the Pusey Library called the “Lives of the Great Patriotic War.” And there's a flyer over at the box office. So I encourage you to go and see this exhibit, which runs through November 26. And it focuses on Jewish participation in the Soviet armed forces during World War Two. And it brings together wartime diaries, letters, photographs and contemporary oral testimonies—many brought together for the very first time. And so I encourage you to go and see this important exhibit. And now, I please ask you to join me in welcoming Sergei Loznitsa!

[APPLAUSE]

Sergei Loznitsa 5:08

Good evening, and thank you very much. I would like to thank Haden Guest for inviting me, and thank you for coming. Just a few words about film. We started to shoot that event in the middle of December, when we came to Kiev. And in the beginning, I just shot with a very simple Sony camera. And after that, it was a very simple Canon camera. And why I made it, just because I want to have archive from that event and, I think about just a description of everything [that] happens in Kiev, because it was extremely interesting. And after that, we followed this protest ‘til the end, that I just realized that I have a film. Okay, now welcome to Kiev, and welcome to Maidan. And after film, we can speak about that. Thank you.

[APPLAUSE]

John Quackenbush 6:43

And now, Haden Guest and Sergei Loznitsa.

Haden Guest 7:06

Thank you so much, Sergei, for being with us tonight, for sharing this really amazing and powerful film. And I wanted to start the conversation, before we take questions from the audience, with just a couple questions. And maybe to begin by speaking about the idea that we were talking about earlier, and that you've discussed in interviews and elsewhere. About this idea of a collective protagonist. This idea of making a film, a documentary, that's not following conventional traditions, of where we actually have a given hero, or figures who we can follow. But rather, instead, to present a kind of a collective hero. And here to present the crowd, this event, as something, as about more than one single person. As something about this larger group, and if you could speak a bit about the challenges and possibilities of thinking about an event, and about a film on these lines, in terms of rather than just an individual, but thinking about it in terms of the collective, in terms of a collective hero.

Sergei Loznitsa 8:21

Okay.

[LAUGHTER]

But, you know, when it happens, we [were] in Kiev before, like in October, November. We prepared another film, feature film about mass execution in Kiev in 1941, when Germans executed like 30,000 Jews. And I also wrote a script [with] no main hero, no hero at all. It is like, the mass, it’s a main hero, like a lot of people… I did it because, because when you want to explain the situation from that scale, like a historical point of view, like far away from everything, like far away from private opinion… When you want to show from different points, the hero always disturbs you. You have to follow him. And I wrote this script without any main hero, and I was prepared for that. And when it happens, it was like... I know when I came to Kiev in December, I immediately understand—I don't know how—that the main hero for this film will be, if I make a film about that, will be people. And after that, okay, I have to choose the way I will make a film, where will be the point for the camera, and how camera will move or stay. And which kind of like—it is wide plan always. You know, it's a kind of composition, like a Bruegel, and this space proposes you this composition. And you know, it is strange that, for example, maybe you know this photographer, Boris Mikhailov? He also was in Kiev in that time. And he said that for him, it was very strange that space preparing for the shooting. You know, you can put camera and make a very good composition. It is very interesting how and why. And the same feeling I get, also. Because for me, in the beginning, it was a kind of great decoration, where you can read the consciousness and subconsciousness of all of these people, they all, like the barricade. I shoot all of them. I can't include [all in] the film, but I choose the best barricade [LAUGHS] for the film. And it was kind of a piece of art which all people made. You know, this, it's not a one artist, but all this, like, common consciousness.

Haden Guest 12:25

Like a collective work. So the space, the event, told you, spoke to you, about how to film. And to think about the placement of the camera—or the cameras—which is so key here. I think one thing that I find so fascinating about the film is sometimes you seem to be on what seems to be the very edge of the action. We can hear sounds off, you know, off screen, we can hear the speeches, and you place the camera in such a way where we see, actually, this different kind of space, a space where people are just coming from hearing some moving speech. And there's a kind of communal space and moment that you capture—which sometimes seems to be just on the edge, just slightly off-centered from where we would expect to be looking. You're not always focused on the stage, on the so-called center of action. Sometimes you seem to be on the edge, on the periphery. And I was wondering if you could speak a bit about the decision or, or how it came about that you sometimes seem to have—to be capturing this kind of vital edge of the action at different moments in this film.

Sergei Loznitsa

Hmm? [LAUGHS]

Haden Guest

Thinking about again, the camera placement, and the way in which sometimes this decision, again, not to be focused on an individual hero, and not necessarily on the center of the action, but sometimes on the edge of what’s happening.

Sergei Loznitsa 14:00

Also, not to be focused on the politics.

Haden Guest

Right.

Sergei Loznitsa

Because it was a revolution without any leader, in my opinion. Because all politics, they was a kind of—

Haden Guest 14:16

Politicians, right.

Sergei Loznitsa 14:18

Politicians. They [were] a kind of figure who, okay, people, how to say, hmm…. They sometimes, they [would] not agree with them, and they bring, during these meetings, they bring the car and press the klaxon.

Haden Guest 14:46

They hit the horn, right.

Sergei Loznitsa 14:47

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the politician, like, ran away, and after that, come back with another text. You know?

Haden Guest 14:56

I see, the politicians were called away and given a script, right.

Sergei Loznitsa 15:00

Yeah, they changed the script. [LAUGHS]

Haden Guest

I see.

Sergei Loznitsa

Because this event was like 110 days, or maybe more, but from the beginning, like, 100 days. And many things happened, and it was like that. And even any political party lead Maidan, nobody can say that I am a leader of all these people, because in shtab, in the like, organization who lead this Maidan, it was many social organization. They participate also, not only political party. And also, it was a self-organization which surprised me a lot. A lot of things I didn't know about. I grew up in Kiev. I know very well Ukraine, and I spent twenty-seven years there, but I was surprised when I came first time. And I excluded all these politicians, because they [were] not the forces who move this, you know, protest. It was a kind of figure who represents. So, and people [were so] smart to, you know, not to fire at them.

Haden Guest

I see. They let them...

Sergei Loznitsa

Even when they disagree with them.

Haden Guest

I see.

Sergei Loznitsa

This is also a surprise for me. Because you can feel that inside that exists a common consciousness. When you stay inside, you feel very protected. It's just a feeling. And also, everything happens, everything possible. Like all illusion possible, because we stay inside the beginning when we can create everything. Also this feeling I get: a new kind of society, all illusion, live inside Maidan. And, sorry?

[INAUDIBLE QUESTION]

Sergei Loznitsa

Me, privately? Me? No, I didn't have, I feel that people feel that. But me? No. [LAUGHING] No, no, no. No, [LAUGHING] I know more, little bit. But you know, it is like a place where you can meet this beginning of the world. We can create everything in that time. Just in that moment, because now it's a different situation. Now it's a war. And now, a concrete enemy exists, appears, which was before, but in hidden area. And now it appears with tanks, with forces, and you know. Now it's much more understandable what to do.

Haden Guest 18:53

So, at the beginning, as you described, when you introduced the film, you were there not to make a film, but to actually document, just to make a kind of record to actually be there with your camera and without a larger idea in mind. And I find that really moving, because there's a moment at the beginning where we see everybody has cameras, and they’re sort of recording. There’s a sense that history is being made, and your camera is among them. So I was wondering, as the idea emerged that there was something more, and that you would actually, you brought another, you created a larger team to create this, to capture this, you know, you ultimately you worked with three total cameras. And I was wondering, so if you could talk about the strategies and decisions made, how to shoot this film, how to capture, how to be present, how to participate in what was happening.

Sergei Loznitsa 19:55

Um hmm. Can you imagine, it's so difficult not to move camera.

Haden Guest

Um hmm.

Sergei Loznitsa

When you stay, and thousand things around you, and you [are] always thinking that you miss something. You shoot there, but here, wow! [LAUGHS] And here, oh! [LAUGHS] And you have to just, like turn. But you miss everything when you just move with a camera. And I—

Haden Guest 20:27

So you said from the beginning there’d be no–

Sergei Loznitsa

I did like that [CLICKS]!

Haden Guest

I see.

Sergei Loznitsa 20:33

Just [CLICKS] put and stay.

Haden Guest

Okay.

Sergei Loznitsa

Yeah. But also, I shot part of the film and the rest [was shot by] a cameraman, Serhiy Stetsenko. Very good cameraman. And we met once, or two times, and I explained the strategies, and how I want to shoot that. And he continued after that, because he lives in Kiev. I used to live, and I have many obligations, it's difficult to stay a long time. And also, I would like to shoot with this aesthetic, like, from one point, long take, because it's also anti-propaganda, like, kind of... You have a wide plan. You see what happens, what kind of people participate in this fighting. Oh, I don't know, you know, move there. And it's not fascist Nazi, or something like that, which Russian propaganda use in that time. And [for a] long time. And even from Russian newspapers, after Cannes, when film was shown first time, they can't say anything against that film, that I am a Ukraine fascist, I don't know, singer [LAUGHS].

Haden Guest

Right.

Sergei Loznitsa

Or something like that. Yeah. [LAUGHS]

Haden Guest 22:21

I think we should open up the floor to take some questions from, from the audience, of which I'm sure there are. Yes. We have microphones on either side. So if you'll wait for the microphone. I'll take the gentleman here in the gray sweater. If you’ll take the microphone.

Audience 1 22:40

I was born in Ukraine, in Lviv.

Haden Guest

Actually, if you could speak in the microphone.

Audience 1

I was born in Ukraine, in Lviv. I’m a Jew, as well. And I do think this is propaganda. Not reality. You gave it away. Well, for one thing, Yatsenyuk is in there twice, right? And Yatsenyuk, I mean, you point your camera, you film, this is really what happened. But you don't show anything behind the scenes. Yatsenyuk is appointed by the U.S. State Department. And Poroshenko, the new president, is a billionaire. And the mass of Ukrainians that you see here are totally disappointed with the results of this, of these events. And you yourself just gave us a hint that you don't have illusions. What can independent Ukraine be independent from? World Bank? European Union? Russia? No, not really. These are illusions. We live in the one world. Ukraine may become a battleground, like twice before in the last hundred years.

Haden Guest

Is there a question there, or no?

Sergei Loznitsa

Yeah.

Audience 1 24:04

Well, what is the reality?

Sergei Loznitsa 24:06

Ah! [LAUGHS] This is a main question from, you know, physics. [LAUGHS] What is a reality? Because, you know, of course, it's a position and point of view. And I don't know any film, which can be, like, objective film. And we can discuss about Yatsenyuk, Poroshenko, and all these people, and independence of Ukraine from whom, but it's out of the film. It's a discussion which doesn't connect to that film, you know? And I can say that if we have this political discussion, that yes, Ukraine [tried] to be independent from Russia. Which was not like that till now. That's all. It is, like, first, it was anti-corruption revolution. Second, it's anti-Soviet revolution, which means that they fight with people who have Soviet mentality. And third, it’s an anti-colonial revolution, which means they fight with the strong influence from Russia to Ukraine. You know that Minister of Defense of Ukraine was Russian. And Minister of Secret Service of Ukraine, during this Yanukovych time, was Russian. They run to Russia after that revolution. And a lot of Russian influence in that country. Yeah? My opinion.

Haden Guest 26:15

Take a question from the front.

Audience 2 26:20

[IN RUSSIAN, HERE TRANSLITERATED FROM CYRILLIC]

Dobryi vecher, Sergei Loznitsa. Menia zovut [GIVES NAME]. Ia byvshij grazhdanin Sovetskogo Sojuza. Vopros, esli mozhno, posle diskussii [?UNKNOWN?], vopros pervyi. Pochemu vash film Maidan ne vyshel na festivale Stalker? I vopros vtoroi. Kak raz sud'ba Ukrainskovo rezhisera Olega Sentsova?

[END OF QUESTION IN RUSSIAN]

Haden Guest

Could we have a translation?

Audience 2

[INAUDIBLE], if you speak English.

Sergei Loznitsa 27:05

Yeah. Oleg, you can translate?

Haden Guest 27:08

Oleg? Okay. Yeah.

Audience 3

[TRANSLATING PREVIOUS QUESTION FROM RUSSIAN] So the second question was about the fate of the film director Igor Sentsov.

Sergei Loznitsa 27:17

Oleg.

Audience 3

Oleg Sentsov.

Audience 3 27:18

And the first question was about the—why the movie

Sergei Loznitsa

[IN RUSSIAN] ne bylo na festivale Stalker.

Audience 3 27:28

Exactly. Why the film was not shown at the festival Stalker.

Sergei Loznitsa 27:34

Festival didn't ask about this movie. Yeah. It's [in] Moscow. Yeah. But it will… it was festival. But in Moscow, it will be screening, if, if, if [LAUGHS]. We'll see. In December, it will be [in the] ArtDoc festival. And they will screen film. Oleg Sentsov [is] now in the prison, and you know, he expects the, kak say sud? Charge? Trial, yeah. And this is a Ukraine film director who was—he participated in Maidan. And he helped Ukraine troops when Russia occupied Ukraine. And the FSB, they took him. And 11th of May, 10th of May, he was beaten. Tortured. And they asked him to agree with things which he didn't do. And he said no. And now he stays in Moscow, in FSB prison. You know? This is answer to you about Russia, and etc. This is how they do. Because, suspicious was—

[INAUDIBLE AUDIENCE COMMENT]

Sergei Loznitsa

Uh huh.

[INAUDIBLE COMMENT]

Audience 1

Soon after, the nationalists took over and chased Yanukovych out. And Svoboda became part of the government. Svoboda, by the way, is formerly called National Socialist Party of Ukraine. They changed the name because it smelled bad. So the three members of Parliament went into the office of some TV director who was appointed by Yanukovych, so they didn't like him for that reason, beat him up, and forced him to sign the resignation. It was filmed, Svoboda party put it up on their website as a way to scare whoever journalists doesn't agree with them. Isn’t that right?

Sergei Loznitsa 30:20

Yeah, it was like that. But you know, they have, first of all, Svoboda—

Audience 1

[INAUDIBLE]

Sergei Loznitsa

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But Svoboda now, it's not a part of Ukrainian Parliament, you know. It was an election, and they, like, have 4%. It's not enough to be a part of Parliament. And leader of this party, also, when it was a President election, they have 1%. It means, it tells us how it's popular. Yeah? And second thing that, of course exists: we now live in the information war. And of course, exists some people who provoke situation, and somebody pay them for that. This is another question. You know, it's not part of the movement which was on Maidan.

[INAUDIBLE AUDIENCE COMMENT]

Sergei Loznitsa

Of course, of course! But we saw totalitarian flicks also, you know?

Haden Guest 31:28

Thank you very much. But let's take some other—in a spirit of fairness. Let's take some other questions, that gentlemen, in that beautiful purple sweater over there.

Audience 4 31:34

I’m Yakov Porter, Ukrainian-American, Jewish, what's the difference? It's not the issue.

Haden Guest

Welcome.

Audience 4

And a Research Associate at Harvard. The issue is not Judaism, which, if you look at the trope, right off the bat, the Russians say, pogrom! Pogrom. That's a trope. You see? What that says is, it's anti-semitic. See, Putin and the Russians are very smart. They try to turn this into an anti-Jew, a fascistic, because they want to bring back World War Two, that Ukrainians were collaborators. So you have to understand Putin. He's very smart. But it was rejected by the Ukrainian people. If you look at it, there was very little anti-semitism. In fact, there was a man, a Jewish man, had his own party, Abramovich, he got more votes than actually an anti-semitic party. So Ukraine always surprises you. Okay? Don't listen to the Russian propaganda, my friend. Don't listen to the propaganda. Ukraine will always surprise you. Okay? Always.

Haden Guest 32:45

Alright, so, a comment.

Sergei Loznitsa 32:46

Yeah, but I want to add that Russians also [collaborated] with Germans and you know how many people from Soviet Union participated on German side during Second World War? One million two hundred thousand. The army of Vlasov was 245 million, 45 thousand. And also, during Stalingrad (it's a well known battle), 145,000 Russians participated in Paulus’ army. It means from German side. It's one-third of that army. This is a part of the history which we completely don't know.

Audience 4 33:45

Those Jews who were protected by Russia were saved. That's important to remember. My father was a Soviet Jewish commander. So I understand the conflicts and intentions on all sides. But we have to remember, it is propaganda. It's very subtle. It's not so subtle, even. It's there. From Putin. It's very powerful. He knows how to manipulate very well, Western minds. And Jewish minds, too.

Haden Guest 34:16

Other questions, right here, yes, if you could wait for the microphone.

Audience 5 34:21

Returning to the film, how many hours of footage did you have?

Sergei Loznitsa 34:24

Ohhhhhh, 200, something like that.

Audience 5 34:28

And how did you, how did you make the selection? Can you talk a little about editing?

Sergei Loznitsa 34:33

Oh, if you have idea, you know about what you want to tell, it's much more easier, you know?

[LAUGHTER]

Sergei Loznitsa

Difficult to select if you don't know what you want to show. But I edit during the shooting already. Yeah, I choose, because the structure of this film is very simple. One hour I described Maidan, what it was like. The time was going like night, day, night, or evening, like 24 hours we have. And after that, I have another chapter, because I use this kind of possibility, which gives me cinema language, like black, field, and chapters, and divide the time. And after that, I only choose the episodes which move story. I try, even in winter, come back to Maidan and it was oh-oh. Because it's, oh, okay, it's a repetition of everything which we have already. Yeah. And I use only battle, and some pause in between, you know. It was also an episode where the priest explain why people stay here. And in [the] information stream, I don't meet, I don't know if they show how important the church was there. Because it was on the stage, Jewish, Muslim, Orthodox, Adventist, Greka-Catholic, Ukraine Autokefalen Church, and all of these churches. Only one church didn't participate in that movement. It was Russian Orthodox Church from Moscow, which represented strongly, also, in Ukraine. And they all pray together, which I don’t know where you can meet, you know? All together. And during this, like, stage work like 24 hours, and every three hours, it was like, Mass, I don't know, praying, and different Confession. During 100 days, even [at] night. Interesting! Because it's very [religious], even in the west of Ukraine, they are very [religious].

Haden Guest 37:37

Questions? The woman in the red sweater, in the middle?

Audience 6 37:48

Have you considered doing a different kind—about what the atmos—, how it's very different today? Because the same huge group that used to be together is now very divided. But without really letting them know, just by taking shots of the different kinds of divisions? Of course, I don't know what they are. I assume there are divisions. And how they've fallen apart, or unable to communicate, or still do communicate with each other well, I don't know.

Haden Guest 38:35

Is there a concise question you can ask?

Audience 6 38:39

Well, I expect that a similar diary-type movie would show how this huge group has divided into other groups, and how well, or poorly, their relationships are.

Haden Guest 39:02

Not really. Maybe we'll take another question. I didn't under-, well, maybe you could explain that?

Audience 6 39:12

Well, is he going to make a movie—

Haden Guest

Based on how things have—

Audience 6

That reflects the changes in the relationships of the very same people that you showed there? How have they become divided into other groups?

[INAUDIBLE: Haden Guest interprets question to Sergei Loznitsa]

Sergei Loznitsa 39:36

No. No.

[LAUGHTER]

Haden Guest

You can say “no.”

Sergei Loznitsa

I don't think that this is– It's finished, you know? This revolution from the beginning. And it was strange that this revolution, for the dramaturgy, of classical dramaturgy, of each revolution. And, for me, it was two strange moments. The one strange moment that as we, everything what we know about revolution, it was there. And it means that people doing that, because they know already how to do that. [LAUGHS] It is strange. And the second strange moment in that fighting, always the authority was in active position. They beat students, and provoked people, and millions came to the street. And after that, they sent police, provoked people once more, and more people support this movement. And after that, they published the law which restricted, which [forbade being] inside the city, like, you can't live with this law. And it provoked people to fight, because they [were outside] the law. You know? And you know, if Yanukovych wants to kill himself, make a suicide, he [does] that. This is for me, it's very strange, because just thinking, always, I was surprised that if you want to save your power, you [do it] in different way. This is a question, who was behind him? Is it his decision or not? This is, for me, it's a question. Yeah.

[INAUDIBLE]

Haden Guest 42:02

Oleg?

[INAUDIBLE]

Haden Guest 42:06

Actually, we actually called on this gentleman first, and then we'll give you a microphone. Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you. That's fine, afterwards, if you can wait a minute.

Audience 7

Thank you very much for this wonderful presentation. If we're talking about artistic choices, and you're saying, clearly, that perhaps the main hero of the film is the collective, or the story of cooperation, and uniting. There was also another hero, an anti-hero, of course, the anti-Maidan, the so-called anti-Maidan that was organized from above, the titushky, and so on, and so forth. They do not come up in the film. Was this an artistic choice, or is this part of the idea of the movie as well?

Sergei Loznitsa 42:53

It is artistic choice. I was on that place also. It was so boring and uninteresting from artistic point of view [LAUGHS], you know. And also, I don't want [to] involve them, because okay, they didn't play any role in that. You know?

Film [is] named Maidan [LAUGHS]. I concentrate on that, because I shoot the things which surprised me a lot. This is, you know, [the] point where all tension was. And also, of course, you can guess that Army and this Yanukovych stay somewhere. But in Maidan, he was presented like a karikatura.

Haden Guest 43:52

Caricature.

Sergei Loznitsa

Caricature, yeah. [LAUGHS] Which was also very interesting, because [there were] many presentations of this kind of people from power as a karikatura. They [didn’t scare] them, and they laugh. They, the authority, they lose all respect. They become [like] puppet, you know, like Muppet Show.

[LAUGHTER]

Haden Guest 44:24

Alright, let’s take, if you wait for the microphone at the back. Oh, well, somebody else has it.

Audience 8

So I [INAUDIBLE]

Sergei Loznitsa 44:33

Oh, red and black flag? This is Ukraine—

Audience 8 44:38

Insurgent Army

Sergei Loznitsa 44:42

UM…

Audience 8

UPA.

Sergei Loznitsa

UPA. UPA. Ukrayins'ka Povstans'ka Armiya.

Audience 8

Ukrayins'ka Povstans'ka Armiya. UPA.

So, I admire your film as an artistic, cinematic statement. Apparently, you intended to make it such, more so than a journalistic statement. And it's this crowd scenes, and the natural voice effects, and the sound effects coming out of the actual scene, are very powerful, on the one hand. On the other hand, for the non-insider, the story may not hang together as cohesively as it might. As if you had had a voiceover narrative, which is commonly used by prominent documentary makers in the U.S., such as Ken Burns, or Frontline, which makes the story hang together, okay, as a journalistic narrative, okay. So, on the Russian side, your interpretation of events in Ukraine, it's very clear. This is a right-wing fascist movement. And many people who've spoken up here reflect the influence of that propaganda. From the Ukrainian side, the story has not been as crystal clear. And that may be the lack of a narrative which your film may have had. Perhaps you should consider it. Of course, it would have to be carefully done. It would have been scripted by an authoritative journalist, like someone from the New York Times. The New York Times’ reporting on these events has actually been very fair-handed.

Haden Guest 46:43

Did you ever think of working with the New York Times?

[LAUGHTER]

Sergei Loznitsa 46:47

Yeah, but I never use the voiceover, because [I'm] always surprised: “Who is this guy who know everything?" [LAUGHS] You know? And also, I [am] afraid to use the comment music, music which comment everything. Yeah. I tried to be, as it possible—it's not possible, of course, but as [much as] possible, to keep illusion of objectivity. It's illusion, it's not objectivity, of course, because it's a choice of the camera and position and way of shooting. Yeah.

Haden Guest 47:22

I mean, one thing I find so moving about the film is the decision not to have an epilogue, not to have any words at the end of the film, to let the images speak, you know? Because you're very careful, you use very few words in the film, just to give the facts. And I was wondering if you could speak about the end of the film, which is so profoundly moving, and then there's silence, and then there's black. And then there's no explanation, there's no pointing towards the future. It's just, you know, I think that's actually quite extraordinary. And I think, in that way, I think of the film as a monument, the same way that a monument marks an event, and doesn't necessarily—

Sergei Loznitsa 48:07

We'll see. [LAUGHS] Time will show us! Yeah. Okay.

Haden Guest 48:16

We have a question here. The gentlemen with the glasses.

Audience 9 48:21

Thank you very much for coming here. Um, it appears from your comments and from the work itself that you hold Maidan very dear to your heart. Did you enjoy the experience when you were there, and when you were making the film? And the second part of this question: is the revolutionary experience that you experienced at Maidan something that you aspire to do again? Capturing.

Sergei Loznitsa 48:52

Enjoy? It's not right word, enjoy.

Haden Guest

What were your emotions?

Sergei Loznitsa

Uh? No, you know, this is, finally, tragedy. How you can enjoy that? I don't know. Enjoy? What it means?

[INAUDIBLE]

Naslazhda-, ah, it’s not possible. You know?

[INAUDIBLE]

Sergei Loznitsa

Hmm?

Haden Guest 49:24

How would you describe your emotions?

Sergei Loznitsa 49:25

Ah! Of course, it's very sad to see how people fight with each other. It’s sadness. Because all this action show us that they didn't have language to speak with each other. The President don't want to speak with people. People didn't have another possibility how to express what they think about this President and this power. And this [is] why they use violence as a language, which is a pity, because from both sides, it's Ukraine people, like, or it's not Ukrainians, but people who live in Ukraine. And the same we have in the east of Ukraine, more or less. It's Russian aggression, of course. But, you know, war, it's a solution where you didn't have connection for conversation. You didn't have even language. You can't understand each other. This is after that war started. And this is serious, what happens. Because Maidan, I think, after Soviet Union collapse, which I think it was a fake collapse; it was just for changing the rule and dividing the property. Can you imagine, you are in power, and you can't use your power to have a Rolls Royce, and you know, I don't know what, big houses and possibility to buy something in London? It's a pity! They change everything, and, you know, they become—it's a kind of nomenklatura, which now [is in] power. The nomenklatura, Soviet nomenklatura. It's like managers, like middle class, bureaucracy. And after that, it was [the] first serious movement against Soviet system in Georgia. Okay, Baltic country, they always [were] separate, like, [from the] Soviet Union. It was strange that it is a part of Soviet Union. Okay, they [are] independent, and develop like Europe. And Ukraine was a first, first like, appearance. Because [it is the] first time when people start to live, not to die. It's not like, you know, death area, but today appears like a human. With dignity, with—it is because [for] twenty years, nobody like strong KGB or FSB, [cared] about this area. And it was also because part of Ukraine was under Soviet Union, [for] like, fifty years. Two generations... It was not enough to change completely the genotype, the code. Because the [rest of the] Soviet Union was four generations; it was enough completely to change people. It was [a] kind of biological experiment. And now, the fighting in between different kind of people. The one group of people decide to have an idea of personality, property, law, and to develop in the way Europe [lives]. It was not [the] main idea to be in, to join European Community. No! But to feel as a person. Because, you know, the example with Khodorkovsky, it's a very good example. A person who [has the] biggest company was just punished, like, I don't know, for one moment, because somebody [wants] to do that. This is [an] example [of] how you can be in that country. You cost nothing. It’s in one moment you can be a prisoner, or they can kill you. This is a situation like that. And we have many examples. And these people in Ukraine, they don't want to have this kind of society. This is, you know, line in between. The one people, they want to have somebody who [takes care of their] life, like Mr. Putin, I don't know, Mr. Yanukovych. They take responsibility for your life. And another people, they want to have own responsibility for their life. This is what they want. And they say, during all Maidan, we are responsible, we are ready to die for that! And they show, you know, this episode when, with sticks, these people die. And another people come to that place. You know. It [shows] that. Because I met a lot of people who ready to do that. They don't want to live in such a life. Okay, [?Feta?]. [LAUGHS] Understandable. Sorry! [LAUGHS]

Haden Guest