Audio transcription
John Quackenbush 0:02
November 9, 2014. The Harvard Film Archive screened My Joy. This is the introduction and Q&A. Participating are Haden Guest and filmmaker Sergei Loznitsa.
Haden Guest 0:18
Good evening ladies and gentlemen. My name is Haden Guest. I'm Director of the Harvard Film Archive. It's a great pleasure to welcome you to this, our second evening with the acclaimed Ukrainian filmmaker Sergei Loznitsa. Last night, we watched, we witnessed, we discussed and debated his extraordinary, mesmerizing, and epic, Maidan. And tonight we are going to be seeing Loznitsa’s first foray into fiction filmmaking. It's a film from 2010 called My Joy, but more accurately, should be translated as “my happiness.” This is a film that revealed Loznitsa to be equally skilled as a narrative filmmaker, as a documentarian. It was as a documentarian that he first made his name as a filmmaker, with a series of short films, which offered a kind of portrait of Russia. These were films that were often made in small towns in the countryside. And with this film, My Happiness, Loznitsa returns to these hinterlands and offers a different kind of portrait, if you will. Last night, in discussing Maidan, Loznitsa spoke of his disinterest in the kind of conventional protagonist that we find so much in both fiction and documentary. And as we'll see in this film, this is made patently clear. While this is a road movie which has a kind of hero, we realize the film is as much about the people he meets along the way, and also less about the journey than about the detours, about the passage of a different kind, a different kind of passage of time than we might expect. It's a dark, unsettling, and yet, I think, brutally funny film, at times. And we're thrilled that Sergei Loznitsa can be with us tonight to discuss this film.
I want to thank the Flaherty Foundation. I want to thank Colgate University. It's together with them that Sergei Loznitsa can be here. This is a co-presentation. I also want to thank our friends at the Harvard College Library. There's a great exhibition right now, which is sponsored by the Blavatnik Archive, and it's an exhibit that's in the Pusey Library, and it's called “Lives of the Great Patriotic War.” And it looks at an unknown chapter of Jewish history and the participation of over half a million Soviet Jewish soldiers in the fight against German fascism, and includes a lot of unique documents, and photographs, and such. And there's a flyer describing the exhibit at the box office.
But right now, we go on a strange, and mesmerizing, and dark, and harrowing voyage with My Happiness. So please join me in welcoming Sergei Loznitsa to introduce the film.
[APPLAUSE]
Sergei Loznitsa 3:42
Good evening, and thank you for coming. Just a few words about this film. Before this film, I travel fourteen years in Russian countryside. And after that, I get such a strong impression from that, that I wrote a script, because some things you can shoot, or you can make only as a feature film. And some stories [included] in this film, I heard about them. Some, I was a witness of them [LAUGHS]. And, of course, it's not a documentary, it's a feature film. I develop in my imagination the stories. But the main line and main topic, main object, it's aggression, which I feel everywhere where I was, which was distributed in that space. And now we are witnesses [to] what happens in that country right now. But okay, we will speak about this film after the screening and now, have a nice screening. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
John Quackenbush 5:24
And now the discussion with Haden Guest and Sergei Loznitsa.
Haden Guest 5:29
Sergei, I mean, this is such a powerful film. As you say, it's a true dead end [LAUGHS] that we have as the closing of the film. I'm really interested to hear you speak about portraiture, because it seems that this is something that's constant across your films. This interest in the human face, we see this in documentaries, like The Train Station, but we see this in moments in the film. For instance, this scene in the market where the camera’s constantly lingering on these faces with their sort of deep histories. Throughout the film, we're constantly watching faces, and in a sense, wondering what these characters are thinking at different times. And this is something, as well, in Maidan, that we see is very strong. This idea of a collective portrait made of these individual faces. So I was wondering if you could speak about, about portraiture and your interest in the face.
Sergei Loznitsa 6:33
[IN HUMOROUS TONE] Yyyyes!
[LAUGHTER]
Yeah, but this scene on the market, we prepare a long time, like three months. We collect faces in that region we shot in. It's the north of Ukraine. It's like 200 kilometers from Kiev. And in all this region, I travel a lot and shot people. And after that, we find like, for this scene, like 250 interesting faces, which represent, more or less, space. [LAUGHS]
Haden Guest 7:18
Well, that scene is really extraordinary, because I think there's so many times in the film where it seems that there's another story that you could have told, but you chose not to. We have that man who suddenly pushes his way through the crowd, and you follow him, and then you don't. There's another scene after, you know, where the log was in the road, and we see this figure wandering away. And I was wondering if you could speak to this sense of there being so many stories out there. And, as many as you tell, there's many that you choose not to tell.
Sergei Loznitsa 7:51
But it's a kind of net of the stories.
Haden Guest
Um hmm.
Sergei Loznitsa
They connect to each other. It's kind of a variation of each other. And it's a variation of some theme. And the story of this guy, or driver, [reminds us of] the story of the old man who, like in fairy tale—but actually it's a structure of fairy tale, dark fairy tale—and who [says how it will end] in the beginning. Which is like, belongs to that structure. And so...
Haden Guest
Well...
Sergei Loznitsa
It's a circle. Like, we start from checkpoint, and finished in the checkpoint, and during whole film a little bit show the space where people live, and relation between people. And finally, aggression which came from nothing because of that relation. And finally, this aggression didn't have, like, reason. It's because when this film was screened in Russia [for] first time in Sochi Film Festival, the audience, they start to applaud when our hero shot one policeman, and other policeman. It's kind of, you know, it's kind of like banishment. And after that, when he shot...
Haden Guest
The innocent man
Sergei Loznitsa
...this major from Moscow, they made like that [MAKES GASPING SOUND].
Haden Guest 9:47
[LAUGHS] They shouldn't have been applauding.
Sergei Loznisa 9:49
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They stop applaud. [LAUGHS]
Haden Guest 9:53
Right, exactly. But I wanted to ask about the past. I mean, there are different kinds of memory in the film, where the past comes, the old man tells the story. Right? But then there's also this moment where we have the story from the past about the father being killed. And then it's as if it's the house that has that sort of memory of this past. And the past keeps coming up again and again in the film; there's a kind of almost haunted quality. And I was wondering if you could speak about this. You spoke before about how this film drew a lot from your documentary work and the time you spent in this region. I was wondering, so is this something that you encountered, this sort of presence of the past, of these memories?
Sergei Loznitsa 10:47
Yeah, but all things which happens now have, like, deep connection to the things which was, episodes, which was in, you know, in the past. And the past influence [on] the situation. And, as we see now, the situation come back and repeats. And when I travel, when I spoke with different people, even older people, they immediately start to tell the stories from Second World War. Means for them, their memory was strong, strong moment [in their] life, and strong impression. And the story, for example, which was the first, which old man tells us. It is story which is some old man tells me when he showed a photo camera, and he want to be a photographer. And I just changed the end of that story. Yeah. But for him, it was very sad memory which he keep all his life, because he lost... brightness? Lyustra? Bright?
Haden Guest
Bright, right.
Sergei Loznitsa
And also, he can't use a camera. And he said that in his night dream, he always come back to that situation, and he want to [?hear an answer?]. Yeah.
Haden Guest 12:42
Well, there seems to be, though there's an almost, like, deeper past, beyond, I mean, even further back than the Second World War. There's times the film seems to go into this sort of– It seems that the imagery and the kind of... is almost out of the time of Bruegel or Hieronymus Bosch, at a time. There’s this kind of sort of peasant past, as well, that the film is constantly, I think, going back to, in its imagery. And the kind of this sort of tribalism, like this kind of, no? Of, again, that scene in the market, where he's instantly marked as this sort of outsider. And I was wondering if this is something else that you see as being something that's present today, as well. This kind of something deeper, deeper rooted than even the Second World War. Some kind of, I don't know, violence, or you were speaking about aggression or something. Do you see the seeds of this as going back even further than the Second World War?
Sergei Loznitsa 13:46
It was in our life all the time. It's [hidden] somehow, but when you clean the space from the culture, when structure, social structure destroyed, it appears. And we can see now what happens in the east of Ukraine. This, people with such an intention.
Haden Guest 14:24
Let’s take some, do I see any questions from the audience? Yeah, there’s, got one right here. Actually, if you could wait for a microphone, so we could all hear your question.
Audience 1 14:34
I was wondering whether you could tell us a little more, a little bit about the title of the film? And “schaste,” what does that refer to? It's definitely not “joy.” I think the translation “happiness” would be more, would be better. But what do you mean by “schaste,” and what does it refer to in your film?
Sergei Loznitsa 15:05
[LAUGHS RUEFULLY] Actually, when I wrote the script, I think about something different. [LAUGHS] And the first title of the film was Schaste moe, My Happiness. And after that, when script developed, more and more this kind of personage came to the script. And it developed in some different way. But I prefer to leave this title. Because, you know, it’s also kind of, from one side, ironic. And from other side, happiness in that territory, always together with this kind of feeling. I [am reminded of] sentences from Dostoevsky about Russian happiness. And he said that when they thinking about that, the tragedy, like a shadow, stay near. More or less, it's not careful tsitata. But idea is same. So, this is happiness. [LAUGHS]
Haden Guest 16:39
Other questions, comments?
Audience 2 16:45
Hi. I really want to thank you for the last two nights of film screenings. I've enjoyed both films tremendously. And I'm struck by the contrast between Maidan and this nice film. In the sense that during the documentary last night, we had a strong sense of the language of heroism. I think the anthem, Ukrainian anthem had “Glory to the heroes,” if I'm not mistaken. And watching that, it almost seemed, and I could be just imposing upon it my view, that this sense of heroism almost can motivate someone to be heroic, and to fight, to revolt, to be part of the revolution. But in this film, there was no sense of heroism whatsoever. Actually, an absence of heroism, as if the war, the Second World War, took all that away, and now what we are left with is petty crime that motivates people, to the point of escalating, becoming violence and murderous. So I'm just wondering if you have any sense, or have thought about the great contrast in themes between these two films, where one does celebrate, one could say, heroism, and this film comments upon the lack of it, in that culture.
Sergei Loznitsa 17:59
But what I can add to that, can you imagine that these things live together? They exist, this film and this kind of way of life also exists, and it belongs to that place as Maidan, also, belongs to that place. This is two different films about different things. If I understand right. No?
[QUESTION INAUDIBLE]
Sergei Loznitsa
Well, a little bit, because, you know, something which, veshchi, kotorye ne mertvy, proyavilis' v Maydane [Rough English translation: “Things that weren’t dead turned up at Maidan.”]
[QUESTION INAUDIBLE]
Sergei Loznitsa
Yeah, because, you know, I just can [remember] one conversation which was in 1990, in between a historic [Anglicized version of Russian istorik, “historian”] and a Russian filosof [philosopher]. [Historian] was Geller; filosof Merab Mamardashvili. And Geller said that, “Okay, now, Soviet Union die, and everything will be developing in a good way. And we now say goodbye to that dangerous time, and dangerous society.” And Mamardashvili answered, “I'm not agree with it because, seychas perevedite [In English: “now translate this”], chto ne zhilo, ne mozhet i umeret'.”
Haden Guest 20:14
“What didn't live, cannot die.”
Sergei Loznitsa 20:15
What didn't live, cannot die. This is a description of the space which didn't live, in philosophical point of view. And in Maidan, it [started] to live. It was like first appearance, and first serious movement for life, fighting for life.
Audience 3 20:53
Last night, I initiated a question about, had you considered showing what it felt like among the people after it, after the very beginning? And this shows the very end of a situation. And this is a kind of comment, or shows the kind of comment I wanted in reaction to last night's question, saying that you had considered showing today's situation in Ukraine. Well, that's my answer. He was asked....
[INAUDIBLE CONVERSATIONS]
Sergei Loznitsas 21:59
Yes. Agree! [LAUGHTER] We have to change the position of this film. This film must be a first [LAUGHS], and Maidan second. And after that, no question.
[QUESTION INAUDIBLE]
Sergei Loznitsa 22:18
Yeah.
[QUESTION INAUDIBLE]
Sergei Loznitsa 22:28
Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Because, you know, this changing, it's a long, long way. Yeah. Yeah. It will depend on how people will… We'll see. How they will, you know, develop, and how they will protect themselves, and stay for their dignity, for example. How it will be with the people. Because, okay, Maidan, it was a strong movement, and okay, they finally won. But after that... What happens after that? We'll see.
[INAUDIBLE]
Sergei Loznitsa
Yeah.
[INAUDIBLE CONTENT]
Haden Guest 23:36
Yeah, it's actually difficult when we just, if you spontaneously speak like that, without a microphone, then nobody else can hear your comments. But let's take a question from the back.
Audience 4 [David Pendleton] 23:45
Alright, I was gonna, well, I'm just, now I'm very confused, because there's discussion about before and after. This film takes place before the events at Maidan. So it's in no way a sequel to Maidan. I guess, if you could maybe say a little bit more about where My Happiness was shot, and the region that it was shot, that might be useful. And I'm also curious, as well, I mean, it seems to me that if there's a relationship between My Happiness and Maidan, it’s because My Happiness is trying to diagnose some sort of situation, to which in some ways Maidan might be a response? In any case, that was an impromptu response to this previous conversation. My other question is, if you could talk a little bit about your use of the handheld camera. Because typically, in terms of your relationship to your documentary making, but also, there's almost a sense in which the camera at some point really feels like a character in this film, because it's such a present observer.
Sergei Loznitsa 24:48
It is. I completely agree. But we decide to use the handle camera, handheld, yeah, not static camera, to be close to the documentary style of telling this story. But [in] all episode we decide to make, like, if it possible, not to cut, to find the movement of the actors. How to tell this episode, to show the space with one shot, like, without any cutting? It is 140 shots.
Haden Guest
In total.
Sergei Loznitsa
In total, yeah.
Haden Guest 25:44
I mean the question too, about the region where you shot the film, where the, the location…
Sergei Loznitsa 25:51
Ah, region. But you know, the policemen have a Russian all signature, it’s the Russian police. It's not a question about region where I shot film. It's a question about region where I get this impression. It is Russian countryside, yeah. We shot it in the Ukraine [for a] different [reason], because it was a producer from Ukraine, and we think that we will get, after that, money from Ukraine government. And after Minister of Culture of Ukraine watched this film in Cannes, [LAUGHS] he said to producer, “And why are you fucking make this fucking film?” This kind of things. Sorry! [LAUGHS]
Haden Guest
No, no, no, no!
Sergei Loznitsa
But he said this, honestly [LAUGHING], what he thinking about. But he's now not a culture minister. [LAUGHING]
Haden Guest
He’s no longer the– [LAUGHS]
Sergei Loznitsa
He was fired from that. Kulynyaka. Yeah, so that kind of artist. Yeah, but they afraid to support this kind of film, of course.
Haden Guest
Of course.
Sergei Loznitsa
And we didn't get any penny. [LAUGHS]
Haden Guest 27:18
We have a question here.
Audience 5 27:23
So, in the introduction, you said that you lived in Russia for fourteen years? Did I hear that right? Or you traveled, is that right?
Serge Loznitsa
No, I live in Russia ten years, and I travel fourteen years in Russian, and made the films. Yeah.
Audience 5 27:42
And how were you earning a living when you were there? I mean, were you sort of interacting with this subculture?
Sergei Loznitsa 27:53
Subculture?
Haden Guest 27:56
I mean, well, you’ll be able to see Sergei’s documentaries that he made during that time, as a documentarian, or...
Audience 5
I didn't see those, sorry.
Sergei Loznitsa
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Haden Guest
No, no, no, but you'll be able to see them later on in this program.
Sergei Loznitsa 28:06
I traveled because I shot a lot in the Russian countryside. Because when I first time was– I am a child of the city. And when I was there first time, It was a shock, kind of shock, when I have seen that this territory, which [was] completely, on my point of view, destroyed. And you know, only old people, more or less, living there. And a lot of destroying villages, which you can see now. It is common there that some villages die. This kind of feeling that people who live there, they didn't have any, any hope.
Haden Guest
But what...
Sergei Loznitsa
But it's also a special territory, it's between Saint Petersburg and Moscow, because the Russia is big and different places exist, like south of Russia is different, where they produce the corn and etcetera. But this territory was under occupation, and war was [so] strong, and they destroyed during the war a lot of villages. Big villages, like 5000 people, now: nothing! And they tak i ne opravilis' ot voyny. They did not recover after the war. And you can feel it. And I made, I don’t know how many... ten films there, maybe more.
Haden Guest 29:53
And again, a selection of which we'll be showing in a couple of weeks, so you can come and see those. Are there any other closing questions or comments?
Sergei Loznitsa
Okay.
Haden Guest
If not, then please join me in thanking Sergei Loznitsa!
[APPLAUSE]
Sergei Loznitsa 30:06
Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
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