Audio transcription

For more interviews and talks, visit the Harvard Film Archive Visiting Artists Collection page.

Jauja introduction and post-screening discussion with Haden Guest, Lisandro Alonso and Visiting Lecturer Dennis Lim. Monday October 13, 2014.

John Quackenbush  0:00 

October 13, 2014, the Harvard Film Archive screened Jauja, a film by Lisandro Alonso. This is the audio recording of the introduction and Q&A that followed. Participating are Haden Guest, HFA director, Dennis Lim, film programmer, and filmmaker, Lisandro Alonzo. Take note that the recording begins after the introduction of Haden Guest.

Haden Guest  0:34 

...Alonso's films have been called “lonely men” films. Films about strangers in strange lands. Anti-epics, of sorts. Stories whose plot and characters drift. And yet, drift meditatively and with a real, yet, obscure purpose. These are haunting, and haunted, films. And I think all of these qualities are true of Jauja, but it's a different kind of voyage. It's a voyage that's also through time, as well as through space, perhaps. Shall we just say, it's a metaphysical voyage. It stars of course Viggo Mortensen, who also composed the film's music. And it was cowritten with the poet Casas. So this is the second collaboration between the two. They also made the short film dedicated to Albert Serra as well, together. So this is, I think, a break in many ways from Lisandro's earlier work, and yet at the same time, I think it is a deepening, and an entering into new dimensions.

I'm really thrilled that Lisandro Alonso is here tonight. I'm also very happy that we can use this occasion to celebrate the presence here, this year, of Dennis Lim, who is a visiting professor in the Department of Visual and Environmental Studies, here at Harvard. And he's going to be joining us for a conversation about Jauja after the film. Dennis, for a long time, was one of the very few truly talented film critics working in this country. He is now the head programmer, head curator at the Film Society of Lincoln Center. So I'm very pleased to welcome Dennis Lim as well. Now, please join me in welcoming Lisandro Alonso.

[APPLAUSE]

Lisandro Alsonso  2:41 

Hello. Hello, everybody. It's a real pleasure to be here for my second time. I'm very excited to show you this movie. We just presented like a week ago in the European festival, as you say. And I don't know if I should say much more about the film before you watch it. But I think tomorrow I'm going to stay here for some classes, around here, so maybe some of you are going to share with me some other comments. But after the film, I will come back to just talk about your experience with the film. And maybe I can learn something from you about this film. And I will really appreciate if that happens. So it's my pleasure to be here. See you later. Bye bye.

John Quackenbush  3:35 

And now, the Q&A with filmmaker Lisandro Alonso, Haden Guest and Dennis Lim.

[APPLAUSE]

Lisandro Alonso  3:58

Hello.

Dennis Lim  4:00

Thanks. Thank you all. Thanks, Lisandro for being here.

Lisandro Alonso  4:04

It's my pleasure.

Dennis Lim  4:06 

I’ll start with a few questions just following up on what Haden said in his introduction about this film being, I think, both the continuation of your project and a departure from it. I think the ways in which it departs have something to do with the new collaborators or newish collaborators. Viggo Mortensen, the writer Fabián Casas, and the cinematographer that you're working with for the first time, Timo Salminen, who's best known for his work with Aki Kaurismäki. And I thought one way to talk about this film would be to talk about your collaboration with each of these people. Maybe we could start with Fabián Casas, who you had worked with on a short film before this, who is, I think, a fairly well known poet and novelist in Argentina.

Lisandro Alonso  5:05

Yeah, well, first of all, thanks for all of you for being here right now. I just met Fabián through a magazine. He is editor of that magazine and he’s a kind of [UNKNOWN], who works on real, like, countryside places in Argentina. And the script was a little bit different than the film. And I just thought that he can connect me with people who really own, like, big ranch. And I didn't know him from before. I mean, I know his name, but I suddenly asked him but I don't know why, but I feel like I really want to be in touch with him and try to organize ideas for the new script. The script is only 20 pages. So he just told me, “Okay, I don't know you, but if we get friends, maybe we can start thinking about writing a thing.” And because he's really well connected with Viggo, they are close friends. So we start writing and it takes like --  I mean, writing and beginning friends, it takes like four years until we presented the script to Viggo. And he suddenly -- at the beginning, as you can see that we made a short together, with Fabián, which at the end, Fabián appears in image and starts talking about some ideas. And the ideas that he's talking is the main plot of this film. And suddenly, I realized that Viggo has a Danish passport and I realized, “Okay, even better,” because if you go to the real facts, in Argentina probably, it should be like an English guy. But I just really don't want it to make connections with the real, historical facts in Argentina because I thought that people we will start to make comparisons. And I just wanted to get away from that. And that's how it was, yes.

Dennis Lim  7:10 

What was the attraction to this period of Argentinean history?

Lisandro Alonso 7:17 

Landscapes and locations, I guess. I live in a city, Buenos Aires, which is big. And I really don't want to shoot in the city where I live. So I try to get out of my city every time I can. And to put cameras and microphones in everywhere where they have never been. And I started to travel with my car and with a tent. So I've been traveling like a lot of kilometres, even if we just ended shooting in Denmark. And because I like to get away, you know, from my ordinary life and try to feel nature, I guess, in a way that is not very– It never happens that often to me, you know. To get out of telephones, and internet, and try not to dominate the nature, but to feel it in a way that is kind of adventure. I think that it happens, also in my previous films, that I just want to get away. I mean, from my life again, I guess. Or maybe not, I don't know. So I just go to places where not a lot of people want to come with me and stay alone a little bit. And then I started watching what happens over there and I organize my little ideas and I put it in a film. But with this particular film, I just thought that it was a good idea to put it in a period movie. I mean, just to do something new for me, in terms of cinema, because I have been working with more like in previous films, were more like—not documentary films, but more like in present time and contemplation of ordinary life of people that I just found at the places where I have been traveling. And I guess, I just tried to change and look for new questions and new tools for me, in terms of making images, or sounds, or whatever, that still makes me feel curious about what cinema can be. And that's why I really want to talk with you guys because this is the kind of film that I don't really understand a hundred percent. And, I think it will take some time for me to organize what is really happening in the film and who is who. I mean, it's not that complicated, it's not a Bergman film. But, nevertheless, these characters that I don't know where they come from, you know. Probably, because by working with Fabián, who is a poet, that he wrote a lot of material. He was writing like a novel beside this film. And I just picked some characters and situations and dialogues and I just organized it in a script. Something like that.

Dennis Lim 10:26

You talked about landscapes. I think all your films are... even the one that is indoors is a landscape film. But can you talk a little bit about what kinds of landscapes you were looking for specifically for this film? I've heard you say that, you know, places come first, before the story, before people, and that's how the films begin. What were the landscapes you were looking for, for this film?

Lisandro Alonso  10:52 

Like, I don't know, probably places where probably there's not human beings living around. And I just figured out how it could be for a foreigner guy and the daughter just to feel the kind of place, being far away from his own home and just to feel like an [anonymity], you know? And to try to deal with some other people, who they are also like strange guys for them too, you know. I think it is about communication. I think it's all about how we communicate. Maybe it's just my ideas. They are not in the film. But it's how we communicate with each other. I think we are doing that in a very poor way. And I think we should try to make it better. But, on the other hand, I think it's just a film about losing. Losing a daughter and how we keep going with that feeling in ourself. About, how it's about...I don't know what this film is about. So, I don't know, what the film is about?

Dennis Lim  12:06 

Are you asking me?

Lisandro Alonso   12:07

Can I? Or I can ask some of you, if you don't have any answer.

Dennis Lim 12:17 

Why don't I ask you a few more questions first and then we can start asking the audience questions. Since we were talking about landscapes, I actually would love to hear you talk about working with Timo, for the first time. And can you talk about how you frame a shot, how you compose a shot? How you determine composition and duration.

Lisandro Alonso  12:43 

I just find the places in some specific places for each scene. And well, once I’m there, I just trust with the camera operator or DOP. Especially with Timo, which is a guy who, as you say, just worked in a lot of films from Aki, which is a filmmaker that I really like, in terms of the way he tells things. I mean, I just thought that he was going to shoot only the Danish part of the film. But suddenly I asked him, “Do you really want to come to Argentina, to make the whole thing?” And he said, “Yes, why not?” And so we started thinking about the rest of the film. And actually, the film was composed for 1.85 format but because when I sent it to the lab, the guys from the transfer just put it in the wrong place. The matte or the window, I don't know. Yeah, the matte. So I just asked them, “Can you just send it to me, like full frame?” And I started editing the whole thing in full frame. And suddenly, I realized that it was better for the film to see it in that perspective because I think it puts you in a place like it's not that narrative. Or it's more like, pictorial. It's something different and especially if you are watching a guy like Viggo Mortensen with a rifle and trying to kill the Indians. Maybe you will expect some more killing or action film or more narrative and I think it’s not the way I want to see this film. And there's some other issues too, like just to feel the small skies and land. The more isolated– And Timo didn't like that idea at the beginning. But at the end, we reframed. We just made some zoom in. It's very technical, this conversation, but I guess he was pretty sure that the film should be that way. And I think he liked it that way.

Dennis Lim  14:59

And what about the decision to leave the curved corners?

Lisandro Alonso  15:03

No, it’s the way they come. I mean, if you just send the negative to the lab they just put it in the ARRISCAN machine and it comes with the curved corners. It is that way, I didn’t do anything.

Dennis Lim  15:19

But you--

[LAUGHTER]

Lisandro Alonso  15:21 

No, I mean, you can take it out if you want to. But I just prefer to leave it, like it’s more pure and it was more like, I don’t know, I like it. I prefer it better, you know. And so, if I can do less of my own thing on the image, for me it’s better. And I keep asking myself, “What am I going to do next?” If I keep shooting in 35, probably I will do it like that because I just realized, even if I go to film school, I didn't know about that. And now I just feel it more—I don't know how to say this in English, but I don't like to guide the viewers where to look, so I just prefer to leave it. Like, put the camera like a meter and a half from the object, from the persons, or whatever, and people have the freedom to look wherever they want to look. Like when you go to see any painting, you know. It’s just a frame, and you don’t ask many things. It’s just like it or not. You never ask why he painted it blue or red, you know. You just like it or not. You just keep walking, you know? So that's why I think I should see this film or the things I like. No?

Dennis Lim  16:41

I think the idea of not guiding the viewer’s eye is very apparent in many of the compositions, especially in the first part of the film. The deep focus shots with a lot of activity in the background, often barely visible. Like a lot of things are happening pretty far back in the frame.

Lisandro Alonso  16:59

Well, I just... I don't know how to answer...

Dennis Lim  17:04

No, I’m just saying that it relates to the point you were making about not steering the viewer’s eye.

Lisandro Alonso  17:10

No, I think if I can make it happen all in the same frame at the same time, it's better for me, you know. We were just talking about the book from Bazin, when we were traveling here in the train, and I really liked that book. There's three books that I really have been impressed, in terms of cinematography. One is the Tarkovsky book, and Bresson, and this one. And I think just when I was learning, I just got really in touch with those, you know, texts, or something. And I started to practice that way, in terms of– Because when I was studying—which was like 20 years ago—the video image was from Super VHS. I don't know how to say that, Super H– Yeah, you know, the big cassettes like that? VHS. VHS. So nobody wants to shoot on that because it was impossible to put on the big screen because the image was no good. So we just started to film different lenses and deep focusing. And I think I just learned from that kind of intuition about what to do and what not to do in the frame. And because I didn’t like to cut, you know, as you can see. It helps to give some rhythm inside the frame.

Dennis Lim  18:33 

Can we talk a bit about your collaboration with Viggo Mortensen and..?

Lisandro Alonso  18:40

That’s a great guy. I mean, at the very beginning he was like, “Maybe this film, it can be a little bit too risky for me because it's only– Well okay Lisandro, but nobody knows how your films are going to end. So I don't know if I want to be really involved, because, you know, I'm putting my body in front of the camera.” But once he gets, luckily, really in touch with me and Fabián, once he decides to get on board, he was fantastic because he produced the film. And he made some music for the film. And he was thinking like 24 hours a day about what to do or not to do in the film. And until now, he's doing all two titles, even in Danish, French or English. Even in Spanish. And he's absolutely involved with every decision that we take in terms of posters, images, and he is a dream.

Dennis Lim  19:42

But you were telling me that he was also a very engaged collaborator on the set. That he was coming up with ideas, like things that he was dreaming that he wanted you to actually try and film.

Lisandro Alonso  19:51

Yeah, for me it was really tough, because I had never worked with actors, professional actors, and I didn't know what to say to them, you know. I just remember he says that, often, that I just came to him and said, “What should I say to the actors?” And he told me, “Okay, I'm an actor but,” “Yeah. No, I know, I know, but what should I say to them?” Yeah, I was thinking of the little girl, you know, not of him. What am I going to say to Viggo Mortensen, no? But he just said, “Okay, if you like it, say you like it. And if you don't like it, say you like it, but make one more.”

[LAUGHTER]

Lisandro Alonso  20:30 

And we keep doing like that, like the whole shooting. But I didn't shoot a lot. The whole thing, it takes like four or five hours. Like completely, all the images. So it's not a lot. And so, at the very beginning, we were living in this... where all the dialogue thing at the beginning happens. And we did the complete seven houses of the town for the crew. And even it was very early in the morning, like, seven, seven thirty, and Viggo was knocking on my door, just trying to find me, because I was living with some of the guys from the production. “Where’s Lisandro?” And I said, “Who is coming that early?” But he was saying, “Okay, yesterday I had a dream about this new sequence that we are going to shoot like today,” and I say, “Okay, well, the first day was okay. But after a week, I was tired, you know, and I said, “Okay, don’t sleep Viggo. Please don't have any more dreams, because I'm gonna die myself, you know?” But he's a great guy. And it was difficult for me because I have to also be– I have the same crew since all my films, so the guys were—they didn't say anything to me, but probably they were thinking, “Ah, now you're working with actors. So who is the new guy?” You know? But after a couple of weeks, everybody was laughing with him. He was part of the family, I guess. He's now part of the family. So he's more than welcome.

Dennis Lim  22:04 

And the music. I don't think there's ever been music in your films.

Lisandro Alsonso  22:10

No. No, not before this film. I think he created music with this guy called Buckethead. Before. They didn't make it especially for this film. But he presented me some CDs that he recorded with this guy and I just heard and said, “Okay, well it’s electric guitar, but you know, maybe.”

But then I put it in the right moment, I guess, in the right... you know. And even if it's electric guitar, I enjoyed it a lot and I think it works with the moment that you don't know what is really happening. In the moment during the nighttime. You know what I'm talking? I don't know if the guy’s, from that point, is dead, or he’s dreaming, or what is coming next. So I think the film starts getting a little bit weird when he found the dog. Even if it's a dog, and the girl is asking “Can I have a dog?” for a lifetime or whatever. But, well, it's a dog. But the way he found it is not that conventional. And he’s following the dog. I don't know, is that really happening? Because what I don't know, for example, if the old lady in the cave is fake, but we have been guided to her through the dog. The dog is fake, or not? No, I have a lot of those questions in the film.

[LAUGHTER]

Lisandro Alonso  23:48 

Well, you know. No, no! I don't know! Does anyone want to ask me to give an answer or something? I just came here to learn. So...

Dennis Lim  24:02

I should point out, like when we did a Q&A in New York last week, Lisandro turned it around and asked the audience questions and it was actually quite good. So maybe you do want to ask some questions.

Lisandro Alonso  24:12

Well, I already made like two or three, and nobody answers.

Dennis Lim  24:14

Okay. Does anybody want to talk about it?

[LAUGHTER]

Lisandro Alonso  24:17

Nobody gave me an answer!

Dennis Lim  24:21

The question was whether the dog was real?

Lisandro Alonso  24:23

Well, I don't know! No, I mean, I guess the dogs in Denmark are real. But, yeah, I think they're real. But it's my opinion. And well, for example, when I showed the film to my parents—you know, my parents. I have a test on my parents. If they don't say anything, it’s that the film, you know, it can be good for me. But in this film, they say “Okay, I like it. I like it.” But I think it’s just because Viggo was on the screen. But then I start to make questions and at the end they think that it’s a dream. You know? Of the young lady?

Dennis Lim  25:11

That the whole film is a dream of the Danish–

Lisandro Alonso  25:13

Yeah, of the Danish young girl. But I don't know, can you dream with a little toy that you have not seen before? Can it happen, in real life? That's another question.

[LAUGHTER]

I don't know, can you? I don't remember my dreams so I don't know. But, you know, but I think the good thing—I'm sorry about talking good things about my film, but—or whatever, the good sensation that I have on this film is that everyday, still nowadays, I keep asking [myself] questions like that, which I [don't] find answers [to]. And then I stop: “Okay, Okay. Lisandro, just concentrate, do something else. You're not going to find it. But the day after, I still... I don't know. And I feel that if I can find this kind of sensation in films, those are the films that I really like and enjoy.

Dennis Lim  26:22 

Can you talk a bit about that? That process of creating a film that you want to sort of remain mysterious to you? A film that you don't understand.

Lisandro Alonso  26:33

Well, when I started shooting, I thought that I really understand the thing. But when you're shooting, you just get images and sounds, and then you put it all together. For example, the end. I'm being very honest here, so maybe it is against me. But the last part of the film was, in the screenplay, was at the very beginning.

Dennis Lim  26:59 

Denmark was at the beginning?

Lisandro Alonso  27:00 

Yeah. So I shot that in 2012, and then I stopped for a year. And then I kept shooting in Argentina, like a year later. And I just realized that if you see the house at the very beginning, it's just a house, you know? You know, you don't get, like, impressed, just to see bricks and comfort, you know? Because it can happen. But after you see all this [?traveling?] of all this [UNKNOWN] this guy, like in a period time, and then you suddenly see like a green garden with big, old trees and all these dog men talking. So you get a little bit more, maybe, confused. Or not confused, but you know, it's more like, it keeps me away, like much more that way, if some images can, you know, just give me that sense of having, you know, curiosity about what is coming next. I really appreciate that kind of [INAUDIBLE].

Dennis Lim  28:06

Why don't we take some questions, or answers, from the audience? Are there any hands?

Lisandro Alonso  28:17 

Say something. I travel a lot, just to be here.

[LAUGHTER]

Audience  28:26 

When I first saw the dog, I was wondering, are we supposed to think that the dog's hotspot mirrors Corto's birthmark?

Lisandro Alonso  28:33

Yeah, you’re right.

Audience  28:34

And we're supposed to be led to think, for a little while, that it's Corto, and then we cease to think it's Corto, after a certain point?

Lisandro Alonso  28:43

Well, it can happen, I mean, yeah. Yeah, there is a connection between that mark and the dog. So, but [you're] the first one who react to that kind of connection. It never happened before. So thanks for being here.

[LAUGHTER]

But yeah, when we were writing the thing with Fabián Casas he was writing a novel, as I already told you, but the main character in the novel is a dog. And it's this [UNKNOWN] dog. But I didn't want to shoot a complete film about the dog, so I just transport some elements from the dog to the Corto. And yeah, I don't know, maybe the guy’s just born again in the dog body, I don't know. This is kind of silly, but yeah, if you feel it that way, maybe there can be a connection. The little girl just wanted a dog—to have a dog for a lifetime, I don't know. There's so many dogs in the film. Or talking about dogs, you know? I don’t know.

Audience  30:11 

Since you mentioned the format of the image and said something, that this ratio permits a more pictorial image than a narrative image. Then also, you mentioned Bresson and the 1.5 meter distance from the subject you're shooting. And, I mean, both elements, I think, really give this film a kind of effect of distance. And I was thinking, all the time, about Lancelot du Lac, Bresson’s film. And I wanted to ask you if that film was perhaps a reference, or an inspiration, because, especially with the scenes of the dead bodies. There's something... the way the bodies are filmed, especially dead bodies. They’re filmed as a matter of fact. There's a certain almost objective, detached filming mode in these scenes. And I’m just kind of wondering how you move between this kind of detached observation and this drift towards the end of the film. The film seems to be visually kind of–

Lisandro Alonso  31:37 

Nice.

Audience  31:38

Sorry?

Lisandro Alonso  31:40

Visually good, or what?

Audience  31:41

No, I mean --

[LAUGHTER]

Yes, I mean it is, but visually, I mean, there’s something very—what do they call it? Manneristic? Where there's something very systematic. almost, about the way you shoot things. And, in the end, it drifts off its course. It’s kind of parallel or a sign of synthesis of this psychological state of mind that you're seeing kind of oscillates between the real and the fake. And these images, that are kind of the same, in the way they look at subjects.

Lisandro Alonso  32:22 

Wow, that’s a complicated question.

Haden Guest  32:25

Can we just distill it to the point about Bresson? Because I think there was an interesting point there.

Lisandro Alonso  32:29

Yeah, I love Bresson. Yeah, I really admire his work. [Not especially] that particular film. Even if it's a period film. But I think, in a way, I love many other filmmakers but not as [much as] Bresson, probably. But when I'm shooting I don't take any example of what kind of film I really want to do. I just go there and shoot without any, like, pre-synchronized ideas, or drawings, or anything. I just go there and talk with the sound guy, and with the DOP. And I have my own version of the frame, of course. But I learn, I mean, the better thing of my job—if I can call it that way—is to choose the right people to work with, in the crew. So once I trust those guys, I just trust them. And everybody can say anything against the film. For example, the first scene of the movie, the one they were sitting there, is not even my idea, it was not in the script. The sound guy, which is a brother for me, just said, “Lisandro, I don't think we realize about this relation between a father and daughter, so you should do something like, more... like they feel, like, more familiar. You know, like more... these feelings, in between.” And we just create something. And Viggo wrote the dialogues. And it comes that way. So I think it’s a better way, in terms of the framing of cinematography, I just call someone who I really admired, not to tell him how to do things, you know. So it's the other way around, just to learn, or we can share our vision about things. And, I think, that's the way I work in this film with Timo, or with Viggo, or Fabián, or with everybody else.

Audience  34:51 

Hi, thank you. I was curious to ask you a little bit about the costumes. Especially at the beginning, I was struck by the fact that the costumes didn't seem to get dirty. And that there was this sort of disconnect between the Earth and the landscape and the bodies themselves, until we sort of get towards the end of the film, and finally, he seems to look as ragged as his surroundings.

Lisandro Alonso  35:16

Yeah, absolutely. You’re right.

Audience  35:18

Yeah. So I was curious to just hear a little bit about what your concept of the costuming was.

Lisandro Alonso  35:25

It is just costumes, you know. I don't think that much on how they should be. But in terms of the fact is, we shoot in a linear way, the whole film, and I guess, we need to protect the clothes they were using.

[LAUGHTER]

So just, you know, once they just stopped shooting, we just changed them completely. Just to protect our material, you know? But I didn't choose the– I mean I chose the color on some of them but... Do you think that they should be like more details?

Audience  36:10

[INAUDIBLE. QUESTIONER IS WITHOUT A MICROPHONE]

Lisandro Alonso  36:15 

Well the film, I think... No, no. In a way, the film is a little bit theatrical at the beginning and is more artificial. And that's what I like from the lighting from Timo, [who] is a really rude guy, in terms of lighting. Even if there's a fire thing, you can see the shadows really strong. And the first time, I just go back to him and said, “Timo, what do you think this light come from?” You know because–

[LAUGHTER]

This is Finnish guy, you know? Yeah, he looked at me and said, “From the lamp.” You know?

[LAUGHTER]

So I didn't ask him any other question like that.

[LAUGHTER]

But then, when we received the dailies I was really impressed because it is artificial in a film that is supposed to be more materialistic. But in that way, I really appreciate much more because it's another element that– It's not working, you know? It should be the other way around or it should be different... that you feel, you know? And I like that.

Haden Guest  37:29 

Lisandro, I wanted to ask... Your films are often discussed in relation to the Western. And in this film, we actually have, I think, the closest resemblance to a certain extent... where we have, you know, the lone soldier with the big hat, you know, looking for his daughter that sort of recalls, you know, John Ford's The Searchers, and many other sort of Western narratives. And I was wondering if you could speak about the Western, as something that, perhaps, is important to you? At this point in your work, where again, this reference has come up again and again, what does the Western mean to you?

Lisandro Alonso  38:09

Well, I really enjoy all of that. But I think, I mean, for example, as I told you, I didn't see John Ford’s The Searchers, but I will see it soon. But I think, when I was like, even less than 10 my father just took me every weekend to the farm. And I got used to have horses around and pigs and cows and everything. And so, when I was back in the city I just missed all these kind of sensations with the ranch and with the old people who were not living in the city. And I guess I get related with this kind of Westerns, even if I enjoy more like Clint Eastwood films or, I mean, I saw some of John Ford’s and I really like them too. But I think what I really like is the place where the Western puts you, you know? Like it’s totally in nature, and isolated, and rude, and not that civilized. And I think I'm very related with the farming and the ranch and my family raises cows. And I think I really enjoy [riding] horses and I think, probably, that's– And also, when I was making films—my previous film called Liverpool—once I finished the film, and there were some film critics, some of them started saying about all this kind of, you know, influence by the Western. And maybe it's, you know, it's how it comes, you know? You read film critics and then you act because of that. It’s a ping pong thing. And, I think, yes, it's about being alone with the horse in nature and not with guns. But that's where I feel like I'm really connected with something else that... I was going to say something really interesting, but I forget. I will remember.

Audience  40:35 

Hi. This is just a really quick question. I was kind of interested in the relationship between people and the landscape. And I was wondering—and there's a lot of other things I want to say—but, I mean, do you think that they can ever sort of belong there? I mean, how do you see humans in the landscape?

Lisandro Alonso  40:54

Now I remember what I was going to say with the Western through you. Thank you. No, what I would say, like, in the Western you see all these guys, like, having relations or surviving because horses and, you know, the way they move and where they’re going to go. And you ask about these kind of wild landscapes, or landscapes in terms of who are the humans who habitate those places. Actors really want to put me in a place where I can feel like persons or human beings are not that civilized or well connected to each other. So that's why I always choose places far away from everything. I mean, I don't think we’re that far from monkeys. So, I mean, it sounds funny. Maybe it's not that funny. But if you think, or if I think, maybe, it doesn't have to be because I'm an Argentinian guy. I mean, I'm talking generally. But I think we are not that far from– I mean, I guess maybe it's only me... that we are far from those guys? But deeply, I don't think so. So maybe it's something very pessimistic that I feel, or I'm negative, or whatever. But yes, we improve a little, but we are still close. On that, maybe I just prefer to move around nature. I feel more connected. Maybe more in my own system—I don’t know how to say—ecosystem. And maybe I'm just talking shit.

Audience  42:44 

Wondering if you could talk a little bit about the sound design. In all those stretches where there's no music and no dialogue, every little sound assumes a sort of disproportion. You know, the acuteness with which the observer is following it. Is following the sound in the same manner that we're following the visuals. And I'm just wondering—in the editing and post-production—how much of the soundscape is really, sort of managed to shape it in that way and how much of it is...?

Lisandro Alonso  43:24

When I'm editing the image I don't think too much about the sound. Because I really want to feel the image first. And if I get, like, a good feeling of the image, then for sure, the sound will make it much more better. But I have a teacher in this film school, that when we were making shorts or whatever, he always said, “Okay, just put the sound away and try to see the film without any sounds.” And if you enjoy it, maybe, yeah. Especially because this film, there's not a lot of dialogue, so you can just put the sound at the end of the road. But yes, I've been working with the same guy in sound editing since all my life. We even made a short film together at the very beginning. And I really trusted him. And he's the one in charge of the sound of the movie. I can say things but sometimes, when I say my own ideas, he just says, “Okay, now shut up, listen, this is not gonna happen.” And I really respect him. A lot.

Audience  44:49 

I was wondering if you could talk about these mundane, mass-produced objects that figure prominently in several of your films in the last decades. I'm thinking of, like, the locket at the end of Liverpool, or the child's toy that ends up in the last shot of Los Muertos. And then there's obviously the nutcracker here. They seem to have some kind of mystical energy. I was wondering if you could just talk about those, as sort of like, “Rosebud.”

Lisandro Alonso  45:17

Wow, thanks for that.

Audience  45:18

Red herrings.

[LAUGHTER]

Lisandro Alonso  45:22

Well, I just feel that, for example, in Los Muertos, it was just a coincidence. When we were shooting we just put the camera down and there were the toys over there, and we used it. I think most of these connections, in terms of— well in Liverpool it means something else. And in these films, again, there's a little object that– But I think some of them, in the different movies, it doesn't play that well on the characters, but on the audience because they know the meaning of something. This little thing can be some other thing. It grows up in your head, as a public, and you make it happen. I mean, for example, at the end of– I mean, I don't want to talk about other things that maybe people don't see, but in Liverpool, there is a little key change, which it says Liverpool. And the father gives it to the daughter and the daughter is—how do you call?

Dennis Lim  46:23 

Mentally challenged.

Lisandro Alonso  46:24

Yeah, because I say always in a bad way. But, and probably, she didn’t even understand what Liverpool means. But you do, because he's a sailor and blah, blah, blah. So I think—especially in this kind of minimal things—the little things can create like a big... or not big, but enough big vectors about different things.

Audience  47:03 

Hey, so the movie raised many questions and that, for me... because that's what made it more enjoyable and interesting. I found that questions are much more interesting than answers, most of the time. I think life is very mysterious and I think that's so fascinating. And in questions there's always room for mystery and the... I don't know, there's something also really beautiful about being able to not completely understand something, like rather, intuit—I don't know how to say that—like sense. Sense it. And I guess I was curious about that. The movie was very, also, like, extremely pictorial. Like, I felt many times that I was, like, watching a moving painting! And I was particularly curious about that moment where you have this night sky full of stars, and then it's cloudy, and the music comes in. And just, how did you go about creating that?

Lisandro Alonso  48:11

How we made that? With a blue screen or green screen. We shoot it in the daylight. That's the first time I do something like that. I didn't understand what was going on on the set. But, so I asked, “I shoot?” [UNKNOWN] say “Lisandro, shut  up. I’m pretty sure.” “Yeah, but it’s daylight here." "Lisandro.” You know? “Okay, let's do it.” And because Viggo was there. He was the one who made The Lord of the Rings. So he told me, “Okay Lisandro, it's gonna happen. Don’t worry.” So I think, yeah, finally they made it. They created the stars, sky with the clouds, and everything. Even if it looks really, like, special or not, you know, not real, it gives you– Little by little, in the film, since the beginning, you start realizing that what you see is not the way it should be, probably. So, it takes you a little bit, you know, far from what you are expecting on the film. And I think, every time in the film that happened, those facts, little kind of strange feelings that you have with the image, makes it more possible [for] more strange things [to] happen, still, you know? So, and the other one was one of the moment with the guitar. And I think there's some kind of other moments too. So, from the very starting, for example, why the guy is masturbating at the beginning, you know? Well, why not? You know?

[LAUGHTER]

Lisandro Alonso  50:07

It’s, maybe, ya know, it’s kind of funny. He just saw, like, a blonde girl in the middle of nothing. It’s like an anomaly to him, and maybe he feels excited about that. That wasn't in the script. It was not in my, even, imagination. But I said, “Okay, let's do it.” And I think it works, in a way.

Dennis Lim  50:32

Let’s take one more. Yep.

Audience  50:41 

The person before me was saying that your movie was really pictorial. And I had a memory of a painting when I saw the part when he's reaching the cave, with the old lady. For me it was really similar to a painting of Arnold Böcklin. I don't know if you... if it’s a coincidence, or if you have thought about this painting?

Lisandro Alonso  51:05

No...

Audience  51:06

It's a painting of Ulysses near the cave of Cerci. And it’s a rocky landscape, exactly the same, with a cave. The dark cave.

Lisandro Alonso  51:19

Well, maybe not me, but maybe this is a colleague. I mean, there’s a lot of people in the crew and maybe it doesn't have to be me. I don't take all the decisions. So maybe the one who was framing, or lighting, or doing the set decoration, or whatever, saw the painting that you just mentioned.

Audience  51:38

But what is interesting is that just after that, I started to relate the movie to the story of Ulysses, because [INAUDIBLE].

Lisandro Alonso  51:45 

Ulysses, what does that mean? [INAUDIBLE]

Audience  51:51 

Ulises?

Lisandro Alonso  51:52

Ah! Ulises!

Audience  51:53

Odiseo.

Lisandro Alonso  51:54

Ah! Odiseo! No, that’s the book or painting? Both?

Audience  52:01

Because the painting is about Ulysses. That he’s lost, and he’s starting to think that he’s lost.

Lisandro Alonso  52:06

Well, maybe. Not me. Probably... for sure, not me.  But probably the writer, who reads a lot, probably has that kind of...

Audience 52:16

Well, so you work with other people and everybody brings his own imagery?

Lisandro Alonso  52:21

Yeah! That's how cinema works, you know? Do you think I'm the kind of guy who says everything a hundred percent on the subject?

Audience  52:29

No, not at all. But after, it was interesting, because I started to think Ulysses. And as you asked to people, if they can bring answers. I realized that for me, at the end, the castle in Denmark was like Ithaca.

Lisandro Alonso  52:43 

Where’s that? Go on.

Audience  52:44

Where Ulysses comes back to his island. And the only person that recognizes Ulysses is the dog.

Lisandro Alonso  52:53

Wow! Maybe, I– That sounds wonderful to me.

[LAUGHTER]

Lisandro Alonso  52:59

But yeah, I don’t get it. But thanks a lot for being here. And is there any other question?

Haden Guest  53:08

I think we can.

Dennis Lim  53:09 

Alright, we’ll squeeze in one more final quick question.

Audience  53:12

[INAUDIBLE. QUESTIONER IS WITHOUT A MICROPHONE]

Dennis Lim  53:19 

What is the castle?

Lisandro Alonso  53:21 

It's one hour from Copenhagen. I've been there before, as I said, I was traveling with the locations and I have been lucky again with that. I will just make a long story short. I just saw more than 35 castles. They all looked, more or less, the same. They're from, I don't know, 1500, you know? And suddenly I get lost. I was driving, and so I just get off from the road, just to go back to the main place where I got lost. And suddenly, I see, like, an old lady picking some tomatoes from, you know, from the farm? In a little house. And I asked her, “Oh, excuse me, you know, I'm an Argentinian guy trying to find a castle.”

[LAUGHTER]

Lisandro Alonso  54:13 

And she looked at me and she really said, “Okay, I really, I have one.”

[LAUGHTER]

Lisandro Alonso  54:20

And I said to her, “Yeah, I have 14.” You know? Because she doesn't look like that. “But I really....”  “Well, can I see it?” “Yeah, yeah, of course. Just follow me.” And so I follow her, and suddenly, this is the place where she lives. She opens the door and “Yeah, what are shooting, a film?” “Yeah, yeah.” “What kind of film?” Well, blah, blah, blah thing. And that's the way I found it. Lucky guy.

Dennis Lim 54:50

All right. Well, thank you, Lisandro, for being here.

Lisandro Alonso   54:51

Thanks. My pleasure.

[APPLAUSE]

Lisandro Alonso  55:01 

And thanks to Harvard for having me here. My pleasure.

©Harvard Film Archive