Audio transcription

Haden Guest  0:00  

Good evening ladies and gentlemen. My name is Haden Guest. I'm Director of the Harvard Film Archive. I'm really thrilled to be here tonight to welcome back Sharon Lockhart. Sharon Lockart is one of those artists—one of those very rare and extraordinarily talented artists—who's equally skilled in multiple media. Lockhart is celebrated today for her work in both still photography and in cinema. And what's so profound and meaningful about her oeuvre is the way in which still photography and cinema, the moving image, are engaged in a really profound and fascinating dialogue. That's something we're going to see in tonight's film Double Tide from 2010. The way in which stillness and motion then are locked into a really mesmerizing dialogue. And we can say that Lockhart’s films are, in essence, motion studies of sorts. The meticulous framing, a careful choreography of movement, lends the subjects of her films a uniquely sculptural presence.

While Lockhart’s films are most often seen within gallery and museum settings, embraced as experimental artist films, they sit equally within the world of the documentary film. They're pioneering documentary films. They're uniquely intimate ethnographic studies, in which they capture both the objective time—as we'll see of labor in this film—but then also the subjective time of their subjects, which is, I think, so special about tonight's film. These are films very much about rhythm, and structure. And again, both gallery films, and both documentary films. In fact, there are different versions of Double Tide. There's also a two-channel work which is seen in a remarkable installation. Tonight we're seeing the single-channel work which is equally engrossing and engaging. And with Double Tide, Lockhart completes what can be called a trilogy, a trilogy which offers an extended meditation on labor after the industrial age, a trilogy that includes two works that we showed during Lockhart’s last visit here from 2008, Lunch Break and Exit.

And there's something I think very, very different about this film, Double Tide, which is, I would say, Lockhart’s most painterly film and arguably her most abstract film. It's really a sublime landscape film as well. And I think it's here that her use of 16 millimeter photography is something that needs to be I think, celebrated and discussed, the way in which we see it here, so skillfully rendered in HD, the way in which she uses the photographic emulsion to extraordinary effect.

It is a very special evening, not only because we're joined by Sharon Lockhart, but also because the subject of tonight's film, a woman who is both a clam digger, but also a skilled artist onto herself, Jen Casad. And she'll be joining us for a conversation after the screening. So please stick around for that.

For now, I'd like to ask everybody, please turn off any cell phones, any electronic devices that you have on you that make noise and shed light and please refrain from using them. And we will be back after ninety-nine mesmerizing minutes. Please join me right now, though, in welcoming Sharon Lockhart for a few words.

[APPLAUSE]

Sharon Lockhart  4:20  

Thank you. It's really great to be back at Harvard. And I think Haden, you just gave a great introduction, and I don't want to say too much. But Jen and I will speak after and have a Q&A. So I hope you'll all be there with us. Thank you so much.

[APPLAUSE]

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Haden Guest  4:56  

Please join me in welcoming Sharon Lockhart and Jen Casad!

[APPLAUSE]

Sharon Lockhart  5:08  

Thank you. You guys probably noticed that the last credits were Adele Pressman and Bob Gardner. Thank you, both. It was really incredible because when we were filming, we didn't know Bob and Adele came down at sunrise. And I don't know how far we were in, in the cove, but we were pretty far out, right? And after we finished the sunrise shot, Jen continued digging, and we slid in all of the equipment, and left to get ready for sunrise that day. And when we got back to the car, Bob and Adele had been sitting there quietly watching us film the whole time. And it was really a touching moment because Bob and Adele are good friends of both of ours and I admire Bob's work very much, but also I had Bob's Aaton camera that he used on Forest of Bliss as a backup camera just in case my Aaton broke down. So yes, it's a special film all around.

Haden Guest  6:22  

Well, I'd be remiss not to mention that Mr. Robert Gardner is here in the house that Bob built, as we call it, the Harvard Film Archive. So let's have a round of applause for Mr. Robert Gardner.

[APPLAUSE]

I would love to just start this conversation... I want to thank you so much, Jen, for being with us tonight. Just to go back to the origins of this project. Your roots are here in New England, and you've been drawn to Maine now for two really extraordinary works, and this is the third work–

Sharon Lockhart

No, three. You said, “Tonight’s a trilogy…”

Haden Guest

Well, that’s what I was gonna say: for two and then this, the third. So I was wondering if you could talk about how this film came about.

Sharon Lockhart  7:09  

It's funny, because I never thought of it as a trilogy until you said it tonight. And I said, “Oh, I made a Maine trilogy!” So yeah, I came to Harvard as a Radcliffe Fellow in 2007 for a year, and I was researching the film Lunch Break. And so basically, I was here researching and going to Maine throughout the year filming and photographing factories throughout Maine. And in the end, I decided to concentrate on the Bath Iron Works in Bath, Maine. So for a year, I was in all of these factories. And Lunch Breaks was a lot about labor laws and this idea of free time in a work day, and like how free that is or not, and how it's disappearing in America. So I spent a lot of time in noisy factories. The shipyard is six-thousand workers, and they're primarily men, building warships. One of the only industries that's still thriving—not really thriving anymore—but it's something that has a good union basis. But, yeah, so I was spending all of this time in factories. And when I first started researching the film, I was interested in clam digging as something that is the opposite of working for the man and that it's really about nature's time and how the clock ticks independently. A fisherman can go to work when they want or not, or when the prices are high or not. And double tides are during the summer solstice time, and I was interested in this idea that during a double tide, it's like the most profitable time because you can clam the longest days.

Jen Casard

You go to work two times one day.

Sharon Lockhart

Yeah. So anyway, so Lunch Break... We were living in South Bristol. Bob and Adele were very kind to give me a place to live there for a year to make this work. And there was lots of clamming. There were clam diggers all around, kind of scattered, very familiar as most of you probably know, especially in Maine. But the thing that interested me, was like it was just so primal, and it hasn't changed at all. And so I was researching clamming, and I would always ask these diggers that were in that area in South Bristol about their process, and I did videotaping research and every single clammer that I met there, I would, you know, tell them why I thought clamming was interesting. And everyone said, “You have to meet Jen. You have to meet Jen. She's an artist, she'll love you. She'll get this project. You don't want me in this project. I'm not good looking or…”

Jen Casard

They’re rather shy.

Sharon Lockhart

Yeah, they're rather shy. And so basically, we were looking for Jen for like six months and stalking her around different coves, and I could never find her. So when I finally tracked her down and got to know Jen–

Jen Casard  10:46  

Yeah, there was like this little black Prius I saw drive by the driveway, and then all sudden [MAKES BACKING UP TIRE SQUEAL SOUND]

Sharon Lockhart

I was like, “Jen? Is that you?”

Jen Casard

I had my hip boots on, I was getting out of the truck or something… “I’m Sharon Lockhart, hi!” the whole spiel. [LAUGHS]

Sharon Lockhart  10:58  

She had a little black truck and the bumper sticker on the window said “Fuck Bush,” and I saw this woman get out with her digging boots, and I literally did like [MAKES SQUEALING TIRE BACKING-UP SOUND].

But the amazing thing is, when Jen came to our house for dinner, there was a drawing on the refrigerator that I found in a library book, because I was researching Maine labor. And in the drawing book, I found a sketch of these fishermen. And when Jen came to the house, she said, “How'd you get that?” And this is one of Jen's artworks.

Haden Guest

Hand-drawn, yeah.

Sharon Lockhart

I wanted you guys to see that. And so there was this… we knew each other already somehow, and it was really meant to be so that's kind of the long story–

Jen Casard

We were also living across the street from each other. [LAUGHS]

Sharon Lockhart

And we are across the woods and across the street from each other which is crazy.

Haden Guest  11:54  

I was wondering if we could talk about the collaboration and how you came to create this extraordinary work. Sharon, your films often involve a sort of type of precision choreography. It involves a sort of careful control, but then also sort of a controlled spontaneity and I was wondering if we could talk about how this film actually happened, how these two shots happened. All the action takes place within the frame and it's very carefully defined, so was this something that you had to define beforehand? Like that you Jen wouldn't leave the frame and the film would begin when you entered and leave when you left? And did you talk about duration beforehand? I'd love to know how you planned and strategized and created this work together.

Sharon Lockhart  12:52  

Well, I mean, one of the things that I love so much about clamming is this sense of independence. It's like the most independent job. It's really about being alone and not being around people. And Jen is a true independent, and it was great because I could talk to her about light and my ideas—the way I do with everyone I work with—but since she was an artist, she really understood this idea of duration and time, but getting Jen to stay in a frame was pretty tough. [LAUGHS] And to give Jen direction was really tough. The first two days were kind of disasters and we had five double tides that we filmed sunrise and sunset, and the third day was perfect. And yeah, I mean, you were working but I was disrupting this work–

Jen Casad 13:54  

I told Sharon that I was not acting. I was out there to make money and I would help out the best that I could… But we actually started with the lunch break shot, remember? So it was the light and–

Sharon Lockhart  14:04  

Yeah, I shot you in the winter clamming and then I soon realized it had to be its own film.

Haden Guest  14:12  

So, what was the lunch break shot?

Jen Casad  14:13  

Well, Sharon wanted me to eat something on a break in the clam flats. Remember that?

Sharon Lockhart

No, no, because clammers don't eat, so she like had a sip of water.

Jen Casard

Yeah, she said, “Can't you eat a cookie or drink some water or something? Take a break?” I’m like, “Sharon, we don't take breaks. We work and the tide goes out and the tide comes in, then we're done.” Or generally. Not everybody but that's the way I work. And it was Fall and there was this beautiful orange light and the leaves were starting to change. And so that didn't actually go to Lunch Break. You made another film.

Sharon Lockhart

Yeah, I shot six hours in 35 millimeter in all these factories and I didn't use it. I used ten minutes from one factory in the end. But yeah, but that's when we first first met. I forgot about that.

And then I thought I would do four seasons, and maybe it would be a forty-minute film. And then ten minutes of clam digging, it just doesn't cut the mustard.

Jen Casard

Clam digging is the most beautiful anyway, out of everything.

Sharon Lockhart

And it was as our friendship grew too.

Haden Guest  15:15  

But Jen, your approach to clam digging, the way you actually take these clams is somewhat unusual, actually, this is the most sort of manual of labors in that you're actually using your hands to extract and find these claims. And I know very little about claming but one thing I do understand is most people use a rake or some sort of–

Jen Casad

It depends on what time of year it is.

Haden Guest

Okay, well, can you tell us a little bit about exactly what it is that you’re doing, because it seems to be such–

Jen Casard 15:44  

Well, in the film, I'm mostly picking clams, which means the sediment is soft enough that you can actually put your hand in the mud and grab the clam. And then if the sediment’s hard, then you use a fork. It also depends on the time of year because when it's cold, you're not going to freeze your hands off putting them in the mud.

Sharon Lockhart 16:03  

The ice. But I mean, I did spend a lot of time with clammers, and you were the only one that ever– First, you would find the hole and you would put your finger in first and then reach in and I'd never seen that before. And also to find a woman clam digger is really rare. And I mean, it was a tough business to break in. Because, you know, now they all look at you and they're like, “Oh shit, I'm going the other way.” She's so good! But in the beginning, it was tough, I think. Don’t you think?

Jen Casard

Tough breaking in clamming?

Sharon Lockhart

Well, no, but with the guys all in the area–

Jen Casard 16:41  

Yeah, you kind of have to put on a front. You can't be just average when you're a woman working in a man’s field, you have to be kind of above average. I’m not the best, but I’m up there. I’m above average. [LAUGHS]

Haden Guest  16:53  

Can you tell us something about this cove? And like, I mean, you’ve always– So you were filming in the same place the five times?

Sharon Lockhart  17:00  

That was also Jen's independences.

Haden Guest

Okay, so the five shots are different–

Sharon Lockhart 

And also, digging, there's only so many clams you can get, so you’d have to move to another place.

Jen Casard

No, but the whole film was all in Seal Cove.

Sharon Lockhart

Here, yeah but in five days.

Haden Guest

But the other takes were different coves and…

Sharon Lockhart

The last two days, we went to a different cove. We went to Dick’s Cove...

Jen Casard  17:19  

We tried at first some different areas, but Seal Cove had the best view and it worked out; there was enough clams that I could be there for a week and there wasn't any other clammers around, because they didn't know there was clams there.

Haden Guest  17:32  

Had you researched or already visited the site to choose the angle that you're going to use?

Sharon Lockhart 17:39  

I mean, this was really challenging for me, because I knew I wanted sunrise and sunset. And you don't really know what's going to happen. It is really dependent on the weather and chance. And this third day when the fog rolled in at sunrise, I was like, “Oh my god!” I was so psyched. And the cinematographer, the DP, Richard Rutkowski—who was a Harvard student—after we were finished in the morning, I was like, [WHISPERING] “That was perfect!” because you couldn't talk or move in the mud. And he was like, “Yeah, if you don't want to look at anything for twenty minutes in the middle of it.” And I said, “It's gonna be great. Don't worry.” And in the end, when he saw it, he was like, “You're totally right.” But the film is so much about what Jen sees, and vision and you never see the clams and then you go in and out of seeing [INAUDIBLE].

Jen Casard  18:35  

It was really great when Sharon got it all done. She called me up. “Jen, it’s great!” She goes, “It's half you and it's half me!”

Sharon Lockhart

No, you said that to me! I was so happy.

Jen Casard

I thought you said that to me!

[BOTH LAUGH]

Jen Casard  18:47  

She said, “It's half black-and-white and it was half color.” Yeah. So it was really neat. It was really a combination.

Haden Guest  18:53  

How conscious were you of the camera, of Sharon's presence, by this point, by the fifth time…?

Jen Casard  19:03  

I was a little annoyed.

Sharon Lockhart

She was so annoyed the first few days. I was like, “This is not gonna work.” The direction part, but...

Jen Casard  19:10

It wasn't completely choreographed because I still wanted to go where the clams were when there, and I'd be like, "Alright!" And Sharon would be like, "It's time to move ooooon!"

[LAUGHTER]

Sharon Lockhart  19:22  

We had a walkie talkie. This is the stuff I normally don't talk about. I mean, the sound is super elaborate. There were like six microphones.

Haden Guest

So, Jen was miked…

Sharon Lockhart

Jen was miked. She had a walkie talkie in the back. And I mean, it's shot on 16 millimeter, so the longest you can go is like ten minutes. So there's a lot of choreography involved. And Jen, you really were so aware of the frame.

Jen Casard

I’d stop and freeze. “You’re going too close the edge.” “Okay, move out on the tide.” [LAUGHS] I was exhausted!

Sharon Lockhart

Yeah, when the take started to come to the end, we'd say, “Okay, Jen, we got about thirty seconds left, just to let you know.” And then I’d start to count down at ten seconds. And when it got to one... three, two, one... Jen would freeze in the mud. She was always easier to freeze down. We’d reload the magazine, and count up. In the end, we were really good at it. We had like, eight magazines or something? I shot each tide at eighty minutes thinking I'd get maybe forty. And then we would load the magazine, run a little and then I’d say, “Okay, Jen, we're going to count up.” And then I’d go, “One, two, three, four.” And then the editor May Rigler, who's a fantastic editor– There's like, I don't know seventeen cuts or something?

Haden Guest  20:53  

Absolutely seamless. All that scaffolding is totally invisible, I think.

Sharon Lockhart  20:58  

When we showed it in Berlin, the whole audience laughed when the credit came up. [LAUGHTER] It was like a comedy movie for a second, and it was because she was so good. But also it was because Jen really had to be absolutely perfect. There's one where you can see a little bit of movement, because the cloud moved a tiny bit, but...

Haden Guest  21:24  

Let's take some questions or comments from the audience. And we have audience mics on either side that will come to you, so if you just raise your hand. Surely there must be some... There's a question here in front. Here comes a microphone.

Audience 1  21:43  

Hi Sharon. So I think that's the closest I'll ever come to experiencing Warhol’s Sleep in a way that's much more elegant than what he would have done. But you introduced me to the Situationists at USC.

Sharon Lockhart

Oh my god! That was like ten years ago. You’re all grown up now!

Audience 1

And this kind of is revealing the spectacle, in a way, that's a reflection of life. And it is a shared experience with everyone here. So it was interesting how the sound really made the sounds in the room almost like hyperreal. But I don't know if this is the appropriate question for now, but what is the correlation between the Situationists and Warhol? Because I couldn't ever figure that out.

Sharon Lockhart

Do you mean the structuralists?

Audience 1

The Situationists.

Sharon Lockhart

The Situationists? I taught you about the Situationists? I don’t think that was me. I taught you about the structuralists.

Audience 1

Yeah, you were the one that told me that I was supposed to learn about them.

Haden Guest  22:58  

Is there a Situationist in the room?

Sharon Lockhart

Well, what do you think?

Audience 1  23:03  

I'm not sure because it was all happening at the same time, and it's not something you can Google really.

Haden Guest  23:09  

Well, I think that's probably–

Sharon Lockhart

The every day and...

Haden Guest

It takes us a little bit far from the topic at hand, which is this wonderful film we've just seen and experienced together.

Sharon Lockhart  23:20  

Well, I can say that when I first saw Warhol, I was in grad school, and I rented the film because the chair of our department–

Haden Guest

Sleep?

Sharon Lockhart

No, I rented Lonesome Cowboys. Wait, was that the name of it? And then I rented all these Wisemans. And then I think I rented Blow Job and Kitch–?

Haden Guest  23:52  

Kitchen.

Sharon Lockhart  23:54  

Kitchen. But I was looking at Wiseman and Warhol together and it was–

Haden Guest

Dangerous!

Sharon Lockhart

No, but Warhol, like this idea of objective looking and the love of looking at someone, really affected me. And so it's a deep part, like just being able to have this freedom to really look at someone.

Haden Guest  24:21  

But at the same time, though, this is a film that makes so clear its roots in documentary cinema and the fact that we see Robert Gardner's name on screen, I find actually tremendously moving. And I wonder if you could talk maybe about this topic of influences or inspirations. I was wondering if you could talk about your interest in documentary beyond Frederick Wiseman, who you just mentioned.

Sharon Lockhart  24:49  

Well, this idea of immersing yourself in a subject, I mean, that's what all my work is. It's taken me a long time to– I mean, I just came out of this big show at LACMA, where I spent almost four years with these Israeli women over sixty. And I ‘m just now like really reflecting on my work and learning about what it's doing, which is exciting because I'm not going right into another project for the first time. But, oh shit, I'm trying to think of where it was just gonna go with that. Oh, but yeah, so being deep in something and learning about it is always the most important thing. I want to be fed and want to learn. And it seems like my subjects from one project to the next are always different. It could be a girls’ basketball team, or it could be two farmers, or it could be men in the shipyard or a female clam digger, or Israeli old women dancing. But now I'm seeing like, yeah, it’s not like– The interest I've had in ethnography and Jean Rouch and that period in documentary when the lines were blurring has always been there. But, I'm an artist, and I'm not a filmmaker, and I somehow am freer because of it, I think, to make a film about. you know, people call it ethnographic, but it's choreographed, but it's documentary, but it's not, but it's an artwork.

Haden Guest

Structuralist.

Sharon Lockhart

Structuralist. It's in this strange zone. But, yeah, just went totally off topic.

Haden Guest  26:53  

No, you didn't. I mean, I think it's also this question of objectivity and subjectivity too, which I think is so key. And Jen is here tonight being part of that, because the intimacy that was forged with this film, which I think speaks to a really unusual and I think quite striking intimacy, which I think is key to your documentary work.

Sharon Lockhart  27:14  

Yeah. And I realized, again, just recently, that I mean, with Lunch Break, you guys got the newspapers. I hope some of you got the Lunch Break Times One and Two; they're really good. There's an interview with Jen in there and Helen Molesworth has a great recipe. But it's a free newspaper that was given out in museums where the Lunch Break exhibition was but in the final exhibition—or second to last exhibition—it was in Maine at Colby College. And in the college I also incorporated works from their collection and other Maine institutions, and also the workers from the shipyard and Jen's drawings were in a room with Winslow Homer and Alex Katz’ clam digger drawings from 1958—which are incredible—from the museum's collection. And, so it's not just about me anymore, which is much more interesting. It's bringing in these other voices.

Haden Guest  28:23  

A question right here and then we’ll get Helen. Yes, please.

Audience 2  28:30  

First question is a technical question about the sound recording, not about the mixing. Do you really record at the location? I know that the sound of Jen picking up the clams are probably... But how about the birds? You know, all different kinds of birds and crickets? Because it sounds to me like it actually comes from the same distance, rather than, you know, like layers of what birds are close to us and then some are far away–

[BABY CRYING]

Sharon Lockhart

Just bring her up.

Haden

Liza!

Sharon Lockhart

–with the baby and all, that's what I say.

Audience 2  29:04  

This is real sound, I know! [LAUGHS]

Sharon Lockhart

But Jen, come right back!

Audience 2   29:25  

Yeah, so that's the first question. And then I actually have a second question. Because you have two long shots, so it feels like you're trying to break some kind of limit or boundary. And I'm curious, like, what is it that you're trying to break? And then what is it your hope for us, [the] audience to really get from that? And then the question for Jen, who isn’t here, but–

Haden Guest

Let’s hold off on that then.

Audience 2

I'm actually curious what she as an artist and in the process of making this film, what inspiration she got from making it.

Sharon Lockhart  29:58  

Okay, we'll start with the sound. All the sound in the film is recorded in Seal Cove where the film was shot. There's three months of mixing that go into it. I mean, the soundtrack is very elaborate. The base of it is the sync sound, but I wanted the film to really talk about off-screen space, because it's in a cove, and there's woods on both sides, and then there's also a street—like you hear these children at the end riding their bicycles down. You hear lobster boats going out in the morning from a distance, and you hear planes coming in from Europe as the sun’s setting. So I wanted the cycle of the day, which is very subtle, but in that area, it's very apparent, you know, the plane’s always at the same time, the lobster boats’ always at the same time. Jen was miked. Yeah, I don't know the technical stuff, but they were all stereo mics, and then I would also have the recordist go out before sunrise and record for a half an hour and after sunrise for half an hour when we all would be gone. And one of the things that's so great about the film, I think, is because the sound is so different in the morning and at night. When a digger sees the film, like Jen, she knows, every– She’s like, “Oh, that's a such-and-such bird,” or “Oh, yeah, that always happens then.” Or when the bird comes at the end fishing, it's like they're both fishing. Yeah, you're hyper aware of it.

And then your next question was the audience. And I think you brought it up first, like about the audience sounds. And that, too, I think is so different from a museum setting and so special, and it's about the social space. And, you know, we went out to dinner, and we came back for the last twenty minutes, but I always stay for the beginning, because I love to hear how the audience gets hyper aware of their noise. And they're like, “Okay, if I'm going to move, I'm going to move now.” And the film makes you really concentrate. And yeah, and then I forgot that third question. Oh, the third question was for Jen. Do you want me to breastfeed?

[LAUGHTER]

Jen Casad

Sure, Sharon, why don’t you try it?

This is the only way we’re gonna calm her down tonight!

What's the question? This was her first movie, too. Liza’s first movie.

Sharon Lockhart

Yeah, what was your question for Jen?

Audience 2  33:18  

The process, you know, in making the film as an artist yourself. What is the most important inspiration that you felt? And Sharon, the limit and boundary, I still am curious about that.

Sharon Lockhart  33:35  

Oh, I forgot about that. Wait, what was it again? Just tell me.

[INAUDIBLE AUDIENCE QUESTION]

Oh, yeah, I've made longer films. So this was short, actually. No. No, but basically, the length of each sunrise and sunset was determined by, you know, there was lots on the head, and there was lots on the tail. I shot eighty minutes, and it's only forty-something, forty-four or forty-six or something. And it was just about me experiencing a time that I felt was right.

Jen Casard  34:19  

Well, the tide really had to go out for it to show what was happening. So you couldn't just have it really short. Otherwise, you'd stay within [INAUDIBLE] of the frame, right?

Sharon Lockhart

Yeah. But it's not like I said, like, a lot of people think, “Oh, she's a structuralist filmmaker. It's fifty minutes and fifty minutes.” And it's not. I mean, it's really determined by what's the good shot. But something else that's so great is that the tide is moving in and out, but you're in real time and you can't see it. Like when you fast forward through it, you see the tide go [MAKES ZIPPING BACK AND FORTH SOUNDS], but it's in those subtle shifts.

Jen Casad  35:04  

Sharon definitely was the one that– She's the director of the film. I was just kind of in there playing along, and I helped her pick out, you know, we looked at different spots and so forth. And I was willing to work with her. [LAUGHS]

Sharon Lockhart

You're willing to work with me.

No, but, I mean, we talked about the magic hour, we talked about film, painting. I mean, a lot of painting references are in here.

Jen Casad  35:32  

But I didn't think that I was going to be able to sit down and watch it. I was like, “I’m not gonna be able to watch myself work, watch myself clamming…” And then I got out there and I watch it. And I could hear things– You just get in the zone when you're working, you know, you're meditating, you're looking, you don't get to see everything. So it was so nice to see the light changing. And I would be like, “Stop! I could paint that! Stop! I could draw that.” Or hearing the owls and just to be able to relax, because I'm out there. It's such physical work that, you know, you're relaxing your mind, but your body is just… dying. [LAUGHS]

Sharon Lockhart  36:10  

It is one of the most demanding physical labor jobs that I've seen. And we couldn't move, so we got caught in the mud, and Jen had to dig us out a lot. We couldn’t walk across– Because we walked out to set up and we're in the mud. You know, by the time an hour is shot, you're down in the mud.

Jen Casad  36:40  

Sharon’s not telling you the whole story. She's bouncing up and down, all excited…

Sharon Lockhart

Yeah, I was like, “Ooo, that was so good!” Then I would go deeper.

Jen Casad  36:53  

I literally had to dig her out with the fork one day. [LAUGHS]

Sharon Lockhart

But, you know…  I forgot what I was gonna say.

Haden Guest

We have a question up here in the front, David. Do you want to bring the microphone?

Audience 3  37:08  

It's actually a very simple or sort of stupid question—and I think I know the answer, but I want to hear your version of the answer—which is: why do you never change the frame? Why do we never see, in fact, what the clammer sees?

Sharon Lockhart  37:35  

Can you go to the next slide? This is a very exciting moment. Well, I didn't change–

Haden Guest 

John, can we switch...?

Sharon Lockhart 37:49  

Oh, no. Is there the one of the clams? You can just flip through until you find the clams. This is an exhibition I just did in Spain. And it was called Double Tide. But there was one of clams in there, but I didn't change the frame. I have moved the camera before, like in Lunch Break, the camera’s moving.

Audience 3

But in Lunch Break we see what the workers are seeing.

Sharon Lockhart

No, in Lunch Break you are seeing the workers on their Lunch Break.

Audience 3  38:23  

You have a sense that they see each other and see stuff that they see. This felt really different to me from Lunch Break.

Sharon Lockhart  38:31  

Oh, you mean like the independent businesses? The photographic work? Well, there's always the photographic and the film, and usually they're doing something against each other. But with the film, I mean, I was really thinking a lot about landscape painting, and painting and time and light, and how a tide moves in and out and how it's imperceptible if you're in real time. So by stabilizing the camera, that kind of sealed the deal for me. And it's funny again, because like I was saying, people are like, “Oh, it's fifty minutes and fifty minutes,” and it's been written about, it was in the same exact spot. There's two very different frames of the same cove. But that was unimportant to me. And Jen couldn't clam in that same exact spot because she had just done it in the morning. She needed to keep getting clams. So it's about those subtleties and those little things… And that also, you know, there's some camera movement that was really beautiful, like you see, the filmic part really comes out in it and that there are many takes that make up one supposedly seamless forty-something minute shot. But I want the audience to look and to think about what they're seeing or not seeing. And yeah, so if the shots are moving, it's telling you in a way how to look. I mean, this is telling you how to look, but it's making you just more active, I think. But was the second part, Ellen? I forgot.

Audience 3

I don't think there was a second part.

Sharon Lockhart

Okay. Oh why do you never see what she's clamming?

Audience 3

Yeah, because we hear–

Sharon Lockhart

Oh, yeah, that's so sexy, isn’t it? All the sucking.

Audience 3

It sounds so crazy!

Sharon Lockhart

I know. It’s like an erotic film.

[LAUGHTER]

Audience 3

Yes. You hear everything she does.

Sharon Lockhart

It’s true.

Audience 3  40:57  

You hear everything. So you have this physical proximity to her. Her breath, your voice, you know, there are these moments of exclamation and all that sucking, but we don't ever see what you see, and it's a very intense disjuncture. And I was curious about what that was about for you.

Jen Casard  41:25  

Well, that is what kind of differentiates your work between a documentary and an art film.

Sharon Lockhart

Yeah, I guess it would be about clams.

Jen Casad

I mean, actual fishermen, not like a landscape, beautiful scenery, meditative listening and really looking at something.

Sharon Lockhart  41:41  

But it was also you know, it's a film about labor for me, and it's a portrait of a woman working. And so it’s not really just about clamming. It’s about how there's no industry in America. For me, it's about many things, but the clams aren’t the subject. And then I wanted to make a photograph in relation to it—when it was an exhibition—that was actually about the clams. But I didn't make it in time. I just finished it for this show. But three years before that, I couldn't get it right. But yeah, this is photographed at my mom's house. This is my mother Jean. Jen picked the clams. My mother picked the plate. But yeah, so in the exhibition, it's a different– Yeah, and it's real scale. Maybe you could flip through the slides, just as we're ending and if anyone has any...

Haden Guest  42:49  

Are their other questions or comments from the audience? If not, then we'll just close by looking at these images together.

Sharon Lockhart  42:58  

Are the Spain shots in there? Because it's really cool, I have an 18th century still life painting of a big hunk of salmon.

Haden Guest  43:07  

What is this, Sharon?

Sharon Lockhart  43:08  

Oh, this is a boat. It's the... The museum is in a fishing community, which very much has a lot of the same issues that we have in Maine. It was a sardine industry that's gone. There used to be fifty-seven sardine factories in Maine; there's none left. They're all outsourced. And so I worked with the local fishermen and brought in artifacts. But, keep going….

So as you walked around, you got to the other side of the museum, and I shut off all the lights in the museum and opened the skylights for the first time. And the double tide is set up so that the sunrise is on the side of the museum that the sun is rising and the sunset is on the sun-setting side of the museum. So you're seeing the last part, but keep going. This is the sunrise part. And then there's this corridor to the right of that. Keep going. That's the painting. So you go down... That's one of the last things you see is this painting. Keep going. These are some of the fishing artifacts. There's the painting. It’s so beautiful. Keep going. I think there's one of a chair for mending nets. Oh, that was in the show, too. This is an untitled photograph. I made that in Maine that summer. It's a Winslow Homer puzzle. He lived in Maine and the map on the wall defines the islands where we were in Maine for the shoot. And I was thinking of this in relation to double tide and the clamming and all these other artifacts. Keep going. Is that it?

And three of Jen's drawings were in the show. She started the show, and then she was in between that Homer portrait—the Homer seascape—and the boat and the clams. And I really wanted the Alex Katz in but the insurance was too high. He said “yes,” but the museum insurance was too expensive.

Haden Guest  45:52  

Okay, well, should we take one last question? Okay.

Audience 4

This one's for Jen. What did you pull your hands away from twice? Something to be afraid of?

Sharon Lockhart

Very important question.

Jen Casad  46:16  

You never know what's going to be in the mud, so sometimes it's often what we would call “bony” shells and maybe glass or whatnot. I think a shell got stuck in my fingernail, you know, you have to be kinda careful.

Sharon Lockhart  46:30  

But there's something really important in the film so I’m psyched that you said that because Jen clams with her left hand generally, because she's preserving her right hand for drawing and a lot of clammers get carpal tunnel. And there's one point where you get more and more tired over the day, and during sunset there's this one moment where—there's a few times when Jen switches to her right hand to give her left a break.

Jen Casad  47:02  

That place is awful bony and my fingers are sore by the time I’ve done all those double tides.

Sharon Lockhart

It’s the only time she speaks in the film. She goes, “Ow!”

Jen Casad

Of course, I was talking to the bird in my mind. [LAUGHS]

Sharon Lockhart  47:18  

[INAUDIBLE] I took it out. I cut it.

Haden Guest  47:22  

Well, please join me in thanking Sharon Lockhart and Jen Casad!

[APPLAUSE]

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