Audio transcription
For more interviews and talks, visit the Harvard Film Archive Visiting Artists Collection page.
John Quackenbush 0:00
April 27, 2015. The Harvard Film Archive screened Club Sandwich. This is the audio recording of the introduction and discussion that followed. Participating are HFA Programmer David Pendleton, filmmaker Fernando Eimbcke, and producer Christian Valdelièvre.
Fernando Eimbcke 0:22
Well, thank you very much for being here. It's an honor to be here in the Harvard Film Archive. And one of the most beautiful things for a film director is the chance to share with the people the films, and to talk with the people after the film: how you saw the film, if you like it, if you didn't like it, it's good to hear it. And as a filmmaker, you learn a lot. So it's one of the most important processes of a film. So thank you very much. And I hope you stay at the end of the film to take a shot. Bye, thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
John Quackenbush 1:11
And now, David Pendleton, Fernando Eimbcke, and Christian Valdelièvre.
David Pendleton 1:19
Please join me in welcoming back producer, Christian Valdelièvre and filmmaker Fernando Eimbcke.
[APPLAUSE]
Our thanks to you for having come and enjoyed the film and for sticking around for the conversation. My thanks to both of you for being here to talk about the film with us. It's always a special occasion to have filmmakers come and talk about their work. And to have the producer here is an additional special occasion because we don't often hear from producers. It's true that since we're sort of auteurists, we tend to focus on the filmmaker.
But perhaps we could begin by a topic that might include both of you, which is talking about the casting, again, because you mentioned last night how important casting is for your process. And you mentioned your part in that a little bit. And maybe you could talk a bit more about that. Because casting like producing is a very important part of filmmaking that we don't talk about often enough here. And I noticed that you said that it will often take a year to find the right people. And maybe we can start by talking about casting for this film by asking why you don't use actors more than once. Because you did notably use the same actor for Moko in Duck Season and
Fernando Eimbcke 2:53
Lake Tahoe.
David Pendleton 2:54
Yeah, exactly.
Christian Valdelièvre 2:55
That was a desperate move.
David Pendleton 2:56
Exactly. You’re right, exactly.
Christian Valdelièvre 2:58
It was a desperate move. It wasn’t the intention.
David Pendleton 2:59
It wasn't a deliberate thing. And it seems like you tend to mostly use actors who have very little experience. So maybe you could talk about what you look for in an actor, how you pick an actor who doesn't have much experience, and maybe also specifically how the casting for this film went.
Fernando Eimbcke 3:18
It's a really interesting question, because actually María Renée Prudencio, the actress, is a very well known actress in Mexico City, and she did a lot of novellas, soap operas. Soap operas–
David Pendletonr 3:34
The woman who plays Paloma the mother.
Fernando Eimbcke
Paloma, uh huh.
David Pendleton
She’s like the Mexican Toni Collette. That's who she reminds me a lot of, actually.
Fernando Eimbcke
[LAUGHS] Yes, yes, yes.
David Pendleton
So this is the first time really that you've cast a well-known professional actor in a major role?
Fernando Eimbcke 3:48
Yes, yes. And she's trained in soap operas. So a lot of people, myself included, were with doubt a lot, because we said, “Oh, I’ve seen that soap opera…” And we found that it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So in the casting process, I [didn’t] care if they come from soap operas, from theater, from short films or from their homes. I don't care. As soon as they as they can put life into the character– And okay, this cast was really difficult, because we were looking for a mother and a son. So suddenly, we had amazing mothers, great actresses. Amazing. And we're like, “Wow! She's the mother!” And we put [her] with a certain boy. And we're like, “No, they don't match.” And then we found amazing boys. Amazing, amazing. And we put with certain mothers, and they didn't match. And when we saw the callback of María Renée and Lucio Giménez Cacho, we were like, “Okay, they are like mother and son.” And I like a lot to see the film and to see, “Okay, I saw that, and I created that relationship, and it was really truthful.” So I like that a lot.
Christian Valdelièvre 5:18
In this case, you chose the mother first. And it took a long time then to find the boy. Right? Because you tried a lot. And then finally, the mother you really like... The reality is that then when you see them really, really look like a mother and a son, I think they're incredibly well cast. I mean, you can perfectly believe that they are a mother and son. And he is actually the son of a very famous Mexican actor. So Fernando was thinking about non-actors, but where can you find non actors? And one of the things he was telling us is, “Why don't we look at people that we know and their kids?” And see people that we know in the movie industry somehow. And if some of the kids you know, that they might– Because they know, obviously, a son of a famous actor knows a bit what this is about. He might not be an actor himself, but he already has an idea.
David Pendleton 6:13
By osmosis or something...
Christian Valdelièvre 6:15
Yeah, something. There's something going on. Right? You know, his mother is a very good photographer. His father is a very important actor. So you know, he wasn't like the right candidate, but it was your idea to look around at people that we knew in the art world, and try to see if there were kids there that could work. So he didn't want to be an actor, I mean, he doesn't really know what he wants to be now. But it was, of course, a very interesting experience, because we took him to film festivals, and particularly to San Sebastian, and he was very happy and very proud. And so it's a bending thing, what's gonna happen with him. But again, it was a very complex process, of course.
David Pendleton 6:56
Well, I noticed also in this film, and in Medio tiempo, which is around the same time, you, in some ways, return to the through a look at adolescent sexuality, as you did in Temporada de patos, but it's pushed a little bit further, and it's a little bit more explicit. And I'm wondering if you could talk about what it's like working with these young actors in scenes that are discreet—and from my mind, very poetic and beautiful—but that require them to pretend that they're having some kind of sex with the person next to them. And that must be a very delicate, delicate dance, I should think.
Fernando Eimbcke 7:41
It was really easy, because they have a very strange conception about sex. So when I went with Lucio, and I asked him, “Okay, here in this scene, you have to [BREATHES HEAVILY], respirate, to breathe very fast, masturbate?” [LAUGHTER] “Yes.” “Okay, thank you.” So it was really, really easy. They don't have [those kinds] of taboos or that kind of prejudice. So it was really, really easy. Because he didn't care about being in a film. I saw it. I went to his home. I said, “Please come into this film.” And he was like, “Okay, but what's the script about?” “This, this this this and there are some some scenes that as a teenager, I would be concerned to do you will be in your–
David Pendleton
In your underwear or your swimsuit...
Fernando Eimbcke 8:46
–in a bikini and you will masturbate yourself.” And he was like, “Yes, it doesn't matter.” [LAUGHTER] “Do you have any questions?” “Eh, what do you do on Saturdays in the shooting process?” [LAUGHTER] And I was like “What?” “Yes, on Saturdays, because I want to know…” It was amazing. [LAUGHTER]
David Pendleton
[INAUDIBLE] day off!
Fernando Eimbcke
Yes, yes! When we read the script—because we only read the script one time, we don't read the script more times, a nd I don't don't give them the script. So I tell them, okay, we will read the script. And if you have any doubt, you have the chance to [tell] me, but that's all. Don't ask me in the location, in the shooting, “Where [am I] going? What's my…” No! Right now. So we end the reading of the script, and at the end, I was like, “Okay, someone have any questions?” The money that you will pay me, it will go to my account or to my parents account?” [LAUGHTER] And María Renée Prudential, the mother, was like, “Wow! It's great! Very, very naive!”
David Pendleton 10:00
He was a real showbiz kid. He knew.
Christian Valdelièvre 10:02
You should talk about how you make them know each other.
Fernando Eimbcke 10:08
Yes, the bonding between them, between mother and son, was really, really interesting because I didn't want to make exercise or to talk [to them about] a lot of metaphorical things and so I sent them to a rock punk concert–
Christian Valdelièvre 10:26
Just the two of them.
Fernando Eimbcke 10:29
The two of them to a very hardcore punk band. So they went together. And then I asked Lucio “What do you want to do with your mother?” He was like, “Hmm… I don’t know. Okay, I want to learn how to drive.” I was like, “Okay, perfect.” So María Renée taught him how to drive. And in that process, a lot of things [that were] involved, like love, danger, tension. So it was perfect. So when they arrived [at] the hotel, they were like mother and son.
David Pendleton 11:09
That's great. Well, I mean, I think we can see from the very first shot while we're still trying to figure out who they are, it seems pretty clear that their mother and son—obviously, of course, the age difference gives it away, the fact that it's just the two of them. At the same time, I feel like you do a really nice job of keeping the audience on edge, of not knowing what's going to happen next and not knowing exactly where this relationship is going. I mean, it's not unknown in art cinema, for instance, to treat incest as a kind of a taboo topic, etc. And especially there's a certain intimacy between mother and son that we don't often see on the screen. And that particularly maybe for North America, like US audiences, makes us wonder like, they're so physical. And I'm wondering if you could talk about how you developed their ability to be physical with each other that says a fair amount but leaves so much unsaid. I mean, how much of that was in your original idea? How much of that came out of working with them once you got them?
Fernando Eimbcke 12:06
This was not so difficult. And we were with that kind of very practical things, like the underwear, to have them in the same bed. And the boy with his underwear, it was really strange. And they are in the different beds, but there was a sexual tension. It was obvious. And it was not so difficult. It was there. It was there. And just a small look of the mother seeing the underwear was like a tension. So we didn't want to take that further, or make something like, “Oh, there's a an incest thing.” But it was there in a very natural way.
David Pendleton 13:06
No. I mean, that's one of the things that I think is so remarkable about the film is that a lot of people in order to address that topic would then sort of push it or would want it to have a little bit of shock value or something. But in fact, you create all kinds of possibilities for what might those characters might be thinking precisely through the objects. This is why I was comparing it to Lubitsch at the beginning, like, you know, that when the red bikini comes out, for instance, becomes a very significant moment, right? Or when he's applying his own sunscreen instead of having his mother do it or having the woman do it. It's these little bits of repetition that I think really pay off in the end.
Fernando Eimbcke 13:43
Ahe scene when they're talking about Prince. The boy asking the mother, “Do you think I'm sexy? I'm like Prince?” It was like a sexual tension but not so... violent.
David Pendleton 13:59
Yes. Yes.
Fernando Eimbcke 14:00
I think that it's just the normal way to go in certain relationships.
Christian Valdelièvre 14:07
It goes back into the casting I mean, the relevance of you know, we really put [in] many many months in the schedule for just casting because, you know, Lucio was a particularly wonderful kid and he liked being in his underwear so much that I mean, during the month in the hotel, he was only in underwear. [LAUGHTER] So he would walk around the hotel and to to the pool and eat and he will always be in underwear, but that made it more–
Fernando Eimbcke
A pink… bata…
Christian Valdelièvre
Oh yeah, a pink
Fernando Eimbcke
A bata, a...
Christian Valdelièvre 14:44
Like a robe. He had a pink bathrobe and underwear. [LAUGHTER] But it was so natural. So I think that shows a lot into the movie, that goes back into the– You know, especially in movies like this which are character-driven and what we need, right? It is so important to choose them well. And he ended up being incredible. He's an adorable, adorable person. And he felt so comfortable and nothing was off limits really.
David Pendleton 15:12
Right.
Christian Valdelièvre 15:12
But that meant, you know, that it's better to take a lot of time to find the right people.
David Pendleton 15:17
Yes, yes, no, exactly.
Fernando Eimbcke 15:20
It was great, because at the end of the day, we had a professional actress who works a lot. And she was teaching him a bit in a way, no? And they were playing together at the beach, and they were doing all kinds of things together, because they liked each other a lot.
David Pendleton 15:37
That’s great. And, then also, Héctor has this sort of body that we don't always see on film, also, again, which is this adolescent boy body with a little bit of love handles, a little bit of baby fat still, but also becoming a man. And I think that even above and beyond the performance, just choosing him for the kind of body that he had, I think is, is a really nice touch.
Fernando Eimbcke 16:04
Yes, I never thought of a character in terms of that. When I saw him, I was like, “Oh, my God, he's amazing.” Because he's chubby, I thought, in a very sexy way. I was like, “Wow!” and that's the same way with Jazmin, for me, because all the time the media is showing us very skinny girls and Jazmin is like a beauty from the ‘50s.
David Pendleton 16:46
She’s very buxom.
Fernando Eimbcke 16:48
Yes. I was like, “Wow, that's great.” And I fell in love with those characters. And it was good.
Christian Valdelièvre 16:56
When I think about what I thought about the three characters, you know, in my mind, what they were gonna look like, and then what they looked like, indeed, they were so different. And la pelicula … los litros, no? Everybody's a little more fat than I thought. You know, I thought they were gonna be skinnier, honestly.
David Pendleton 17:14
Well, once the triangle of the three of them really gets put into place, they start to resemble each other actually. And I don't know if that was something that you had intended to do from the very beginning, but especially the shots with the three of them sitting across the screen, whether it's on the bed or on the beach, and it becomes like the three monkeys like See No Evil, Hear No Evil, etc, which I think is really fascinating. And it brings me to a question that I wanted to ask about editing, which in some ways is a carryover from the conversation from last night. But typically, in this film, as in your earlier films, each sequence is only one shot— sometimes it'll be two or three—but there's never a sense of continuity editing in the way that we usually think of it from mainstream films where you have shot-reverse-shot, over-the-shoulder, etcetera. But what's interesting in this film is that the editing starts to evolve as the triangle gets set into place, because the first time I think that we have a cut within a scene is the scene of the two of them in the hotel room for the first time, or maybe it’s not the first time, but the first time where they actually start to touch each other. And then whenever the three of them are together, the editing starts to get a little bit more intricate. So we end up with a game of castigos which is all close-ups. So we've also suddenly graduated from this very sort of medium-shot to close-ups. Was this an idea that you had when you were storyboarding the film, or when you were planning the film?
Fernando Eimbcke 18:47
No, no, actually, it was really strange because in all the films we work [it out as we are shooting]. And we said in the scene, “We are going to make this and this and this and this,” and when we [get] to the set we said “Okay, we can do it in one scene.” And it's the same with this one. But when we went with the relationship between Héctor and Jazmin, the thing that I thought would happen, didn't happen. There was not this desire between them. Yes, in some way, they were like–
David Pendleton 19:32
When you say it didn't happen, you mean it didn't happen between the actors or it didn't show up on the camera or…? come around and I was
Fernando Eimbcke 19:41
Between the actors on the camera. Like, I don't know. I feel very comfortable with a wide shot because sometimes things that I want, it goes into a single shot. But in this one with this with them, it wasn't happening. I was like, “What can I do?” So I did close-ups and I [constructed it] in a cinematographic way. [LAUGHS] So at the end of the film, when they are in this car play, I divided a lot, because I thought that it was impossible to make it in a single shot. So yes, yes. It was really useful to use the cinematographic tools. The cut!
David Pendleton 20:29
Right. Well, and also the fact that you've withheld the close-ups before that makes them all the more remarkable and all the more effective when they come. Yeah, no, absolutely.
But I also think that you make really interesting use of the relationship between Héctor and Jazmin because it isn't clear to what extent they're feeling things that they just feel like they can't express because they're surrounded by their parents. And to what extent there's still this sort of repression that's holding them back. So there's a way in which the relationship seems kind of– There's always this kind of deadpan—you know what I mean?—this sort of blank thing that your actors often have, and it continues with Héctor and Jazmin, which is a very interesting depiction of young love, I think. It raises the question of, is this happening because it can opportunistically, because they're the only two young people at this thing? Or do they really desire each other? And it adds another level of mystery, I think, to the film.
I wasn't really a question. It was just sort of an observation.
Fernando Eimbcke 21:40
Well, I don't think that there was a lot of desire. No, no, no, no.
Christian Valdelièvre 21:45
I don't think they really liked each other. [LAUGHTER] Not really. Because the mother and the son like each other a lot.
Fernando Eimbcke 21:54
Jazmin, she's an amazing girl. lovely girl. Very intelligent, but I mean, really intelligent. And Lucio was like a little... animal!
Christian Valdelièvre
A little boy.
Fernando Eimbcke
A little boy, and he was eating a lot and going to the beach. And Jazmin was reading...
Christian Valdelièvre 22:20
Like Camus or something…
[LAUGHTER]
No, really!
Fernando Eimbcke 22:23
So Héctor, Lucio was like, “Hello!!! How are you?! What are you reading?” And the girl was like, “Camus.” [LAUGHTER] “Whaaat? That’s very boring.” “It's boring if you don't understand.” [LAUGHTER]
Christian Valdelièvre 22:38
And the kid is, you know, in the water, in the pool…
Fernando Eimbcke
In the water, full of sand…
Christian Valdelièvre
...and kind of half-naked and his girlfriend is reading Camus. So the reality is there was never a very big sexual tension. We were worried about it a bit. Because I certainly thought there was going to be an amazing amount of sexual tension amongst them, but that didn't really happen in real life.
David Pendleton 23:04
Well she does seem older than he. I guess they’re the same age, but she looks a little bit older.
Christian Valdelièvre 23:08
She's older. She's lied. Yes, it wasn't the one of Lake Tahoe, it was her. She said she was one-and-a-half-year younger than she really was. she wanted to get because she wanted the job.
David Pendleton 23:24
Because she wanted to get the part, and she was a little too old for the part.
Christian Valdelièvre
Yes. But she looks young.
David Pendleton
But it works. That slight difference works. Because women—I mean, girls—mature earlier than boys anyway, so it's not clear….
Fernando Eimbcke 23:38
Yes, it worked. Yeah.
David Pendleton 23:40
I've got a whole list of questions, but at this point, let's see if there are any questions in the audience? If not, I'll go back to my list, and you can have another chance. Yes, let’s have Lydia ask a question. Wait, wait... Can you wait for a mic because Olivier is going to bring you a mic?
Audience 1 23:58
Well, I saw the movie last night and tonight and I just wondered if you might say something about touch because I feel like these movies are so much about touch, both of them. And particularly last night where the boy learns to touch in the movie by holding the baby and his friend hugging him unexpectedly. And both movies seem to have touch be like a site of awkwardness but longing or something like there's just a desire to touch and people who can't quite do it, and then they do do it. So I just wondered if you could talk a bit about that bodily / body part of the movie?
Fernando Eimbcke 24:35
Yes. No, it's a very interesting question for my therapist, for my psychoanalyst. [LAUGHS] Yes, it's that's the kind of thing that happens
John Quackenbush 24:49
End of the recording.
©Harvard Film Archive
