Audio transcription

For more interviews and talks, visit the Harvard Film Archive Visiting Artists Collection page.

Screening of Western with introduction and post-screening discussion with Haden Guest, Valeska Grisebach and Roy Grundmann. Saturday November 17,  2018.

Haden Guest 0:06

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Haden Guest. I'm director of the Harvard Film Archive. And I want to thank you all for being with us tonight as we prepare ourselves to watch Western, which is the most recent film by Valeska Grisebach, who is one of the younger filmmakers associated with the celebrated Berlin School. That loose group of talented directors that includes such important names as Thomas Aslan, Angela Schanelec, and of course, Christian Petzold, who will be actually here at the Harvard Film Archive in a couple of weeks with his two latest films. Tonight, tomorrow and Monday night we will be screening films by Valeska Grisebach, who will be here in person to present and discuss her work.

Tonight she will be here after the screening of Western. She was due last night and her flight was canceled by that freak storm, but her plane has just landed, so I'm glad to say that she will indeed be here to discuss Western with me and with all of you so please, don't go anywhere.

Grisebach has made only three films today. She has defined a truly singular position within the Berlin School and within contemporary European cinema in general by extending and inventively engaging the critical stance shared by Berlin school filmmakers who have together forged a rigorous and also inventively playful mode of art cinema. One of the larger and key issues engaged in question by Grisebach and her contemporaries is the responsibility and possibility of cinema to represent the nation.

For many years, a heavy expectation was placed on internationally celebrated German filmmakers to engage the most crucial issues related to the native land; to make films, that is, dealing with questions of Germaness and the often troubling lessons of German history. Tonight's film Western is among the clearest, most ambitious, yet wonderfully ambiguous replies to this charge and expectation by a contemporary German filmmaker. The title of course, conjures that quintessential and richly problematic genre associated with Hollywood, but also with German cinema, for there is a long history, in fact, of politically charged and anti-imperialist East German Westerns. Grisebach’s Western openly engages the genre: you will see laconic, tall men riding horses and facing off in fierce competition in a dusty frontier town. As in so many Westerns, this is a story of an enigmatic stranger whose identity and motivations remain as mysterious as those of Randolph Scott and the films of Budd Boetticher or Gregory Peck and Henry King's The Gunfighter.

Yet Western is also a coordinate, a reference to the somewhat unexpected location of this film in far Eastern Europe, in remote Bulgaria, on the border with Greece, where a team of contract laborers have come from the west—from Germany—to build a hydroelectric plant, bringing with them their skills and heavy machinery, but also the heavy baggage of their Western attitudes. Grisebach’s new film suddenly asks us to consider the unspoken histories and mythologies that orient and define so much of dominant cinema and cinematic narrative—assumptions about heroism and action that she challenges with a subversive, yet wonderfully understated feminist charge that links her films, I think, to the work of American independent Kelly Reichardt. Some of the richest moments of humor in the film, in fact, come from her gentle skewering of middle aged machismo.

One of the great innovations and sources, I think, of Grisebach’s real originality is her approach to performance and her casting of non-actors—a practice she's steadily refined across her three films—and it's one that I'm looking forward to discussing with her when she joins us after the screening. Now Valeska Grisebach’s visit is very special because she's here as the second Baby Jane Holzer Visiting Artist in Film. This is thanks to a multi-year gift to the Harvard Film Archive, to the Department of Visual and Environmental Studies and to the Department of Theater, Dance and Media—named in honor of the famed Warhol superstar. And this is about more than just a visit to the Harvard Film Archive, because these distinguished filmmakers are in residence, so as to speak, for a number of days here at Harvard, where they meet with students, they visit classes, and they deliver a masterclass to a select group of of production students and film studies students, and we had our first visitor earlier in this fall; that was Alice Rohrwacher, and it was a great success, and we are equally thrilled that Valeska Grisebach is joining this wonderful roster. I want to give special thanks to the Holzer family and to Rusty Holzer, who is here tonight. Let's give him a round of applause. [APPLAUSE]

I also want to thank our partners, as well, at the Goethe Institute. The Goethe Institute is the indispensable partner for all of our programs in German cinema. And we've been doing a lot of this recently. Take a look at our most recent calendar, you'll see we have an ongoing program, which offers a really unique archaeology of West German cinema curated by the great Olaf Möller. And then as I mentioned before, we have Christian Petzold coming in the beginning of December. So I want to thank the cultural program curator at the Goethe Institute Karin Oehlenschläger. And this screening is also part of a coordinate of award-winning contemporary German films that are screening in the Boston/Cambridge area: here and at the Brattle, and also at the Coolidge. So you can take a look on the Goethe Institute website to see what other films are being offered. I also want to thank the Office of the new Consul of Germany to Boston, Nicole Menzenbach, and I believe the cultural programmer of her office is here tonight, Liz van Wagner. So I want to give her a special welcome as well. [APPLAUSE]

I’d like to ask everybody: please turn off any cell phones, any electronic device that you have. Please refrain from using them during the course of tonight's screening. And please stay with us for Valeska Grisebach who will join us for conversation afterwards. Tomorrow night, we'll be screening her breakthrough film Longing. And she'll be in conversation with myself and also Gerd Gemünden from Dartmouth College. It’s going to be a really great evening. And then on Monday, we're going backwards in time, and we'll be seeing her first film, a film that she made at the Austrian Film School under the tutelage of Michael Haneke. It's called Be My Star. So we'll expect to see you at those screenings as well. Thank you very much.

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Haden Guest 7:19

… Also joining us as well, when needed, will be our colleague and friend, Roy Grundmann.

Yes, so thank you so much for being here. And thank you so much for making this extraordinary trip. And we're so glad you made it some time to discuss Western.

Valeska Grisebach 7:38 

And I also would like to thank you for the wonderful invitation. And I'm very happy finally to be here. And I also would like to thank Karin Kolb, who was like a bodyguard for the traveling. And I'm really happy to be here.

Haden Guest 7:53

Oh, great. So I'd like to begin the conversation with the beginning of this film, and to talk about how you came to make this film, the story of Germans in Eastern Europe. And I ask this question, knowing that– I mean, because there's also this larger context, of course, of the refugee crisis of this heightened awareness of borders and nations. And so I was wondering if you could speak about how this project came about and the context.

Valeska Grisebach 8:25 

So I think there were different paths [which] led me to the film. And because always in the beginning, I don't have something like a story, it's more like, I have some subjects or themes which are interesting to me. And I start by writing. It’s also very close to research and casting... A very associative process. And I think one thing: I was very attracted [to] the Western genre, because I saw a lot of Westerns with my father in the 70s. And at some point, I realized how attracted I am [to] this very male genre. And I was interested to come a little bit closer to these solitary male heroes, and this kind of masculinity, which– I'm sorry about my a-little-bit-tired English… The genre deals with this kind of masculinity and I thought, it's a genre which really tells a lot about the construction of society. And the other thing was that for many years, I was thinking to make something about xenophobia in Germany, because when I did research for other films, I thought, there’s this official history talking about history, but there's another kind of talking about history in families and in private situations. But I never could find a setting in Germany which was really persuading to me, because I thought in Germany, you're very soon in the neo-nazi genre. And at the same time, I thought it would be interesting to make something about different perspectives in Europe. And when I found this situation, this idea about German workers in east Europe, I thought, okay, now I can start with a project.

Haden Guest 10:27 

And so I know you mentioned here casting as being so important in this deep research that you do. So once you have the parameters of the place, of the story, how does this casting process and the story development, how does that take place? For instance, this figure of Meinhard, whose character has the same name as the actor... How do you shape characters and stories working with your actors? And how do you cast them to begin with?

Valeska Grisebach 11:00

I think in the beginning, it was really at the same time when I started to write, I wanted to talk with men later, also with women, about their duels and the Western moments in life. And I really took my personal pin-up moment on the streets... I was wandering on the streets, and I was looking for men I could imagine on a horse in a Western. It was like a pinup moment. [LAUGHS] And very soon, I ended up at construction sites, because there you have this kind of old fashioned masculinity and body language and the tools on the belt... And for me, it was very nice because sometimes it's a very strange situation when you ask people on the street, “Would you come for casting or for an interview?” but when I told the men, “Okay, I would like to make a Western,” they said immediately, “Okay, I'm coming.” [LAUGHTER] And because we did a huge casting—I think it was 600 men—but for the filming process, it was very good, because the cards were open on the table. For me as a woman, I would like to make a Western film also about these men, but for the main character, I was looking for somebody who creates ambivalence, fantasies? So maybe at first sight, he looks like a leader or like when you look at a group of men, you think, Okay, he’s the one, but maybe at the same time, he is a small man with all his opportunistic feelings and fear and ambivalent character. And Meinhard, I saw him [at] a horse market close to Berlin, but he [had never ridden] before, so he was selling old stuff. And it was really, for me, a little bit like a shock moment to see him because he was so iconic, close to the Western genre. And in private life, he [really wears] a cowboy hat. So he was really very sad that he couldn't wear it in the film. [LAUGHS] But I mean, he was for me, also... when I look at him, creates a lot of fantasies and ideas. And I really like his name, because in German Meinhard is like my heart. So it's a very sensitive, fragile name. And so we decided in the end together, that he would keep his name in the film.

Haden Guest 13:26 

There are in fact, all these moments where he talks about, you know, he loves Bulgaria or the horse has to be even killed, and the heart... So this interview process, though, when you ask the same set of questions to– When you're casting, you're asking people about their “Western moments.” So this idea that there was a kind of imagination of the Western in everyday life?

Valeska Grisebach 13:51

Yeah, because for me, I thought the duel is very interesting in relationships to get in contact with people, and sometimes you come close to people with a duel in daily life. And so, I asked men and women about their duels in their daily life. So I think, for me, it's very interesting whenever I get to confront a fiction story with these documentary moments, it's like a sparring partner, and I think this is a method we take to the end of the filming process with us.

Haden Guest 14:35

And in fact, the film is structured on a series of confrontations or duels, if you will, that go throughout the film and, of course, lead to these eruptions of violence throughout the film. So how involved are the actors though in the development of the story then?

Valeska Grisebach 14:59   

So it's… it's so-so! [LAUGHS] I mean, there's a written script, but it doesn't look like a normal script. It's more like a treatment. And I think it's a very important moment, I think, then, to leave the script. I mean, it's always there. But the actors, they don't get the script, because, I think,

sometimes when they learn the text, it's like a knot in their head. And it's for me, it's better working really to talk about everything and to talk about the scenes and the dialect and so it's always kind of trial and error, what is working, what is not working? And I think there are moments when we see okay, it's not working, and we think together, how can you make it [work]?

But there's one personal moment… For example, Meinhard... When I wrote the script, I always thought that his Bulgarian friend Adrian is also like a fantasy. I mean, he's a real friend, but he’s also maybe some kind of projection. And he's maybe an [image] of a perfect Meinhard, and as I saw them, like brothers in a way, so when we did the casting, and we cast it for Adrian, I did a walk in the woods with both men, and they were so synchronized, it was a very beautiful moment to see them together, when they were walking through the woods, and yeah... But Meinhard, when he was in Bulgaria, he was very moved, because he was not traveling so much before. And I think in private life, he's more [GESTURES] right? So he's really not so friendly, sometimes thinking about strangers. So I think the whole group in the film was in reality is really different than in the film. More tough maybe. But he was very moved by Bulgaria. And when he saw the—and I am allowed to talk about this—so when he saw the stolen hat, he was really– He cried. And because he lost his brother, he really lost his brother. And so the brother was always with us when we did the film. And at some point, we really thought, okay, maybe we should take the brother into the film, because there is his connection with the character of Adrian. And so I always thought, okay, there should be a very strong scene between the two men. But what was for me the first time that [I] took some private moment into a film.

Haden Guest 17:35   

And so much of the film is about the limits of communication, this the fact that you have these two languages being spoken, and they're not necessarily understanding exactly what's being said, but there's a different kind of communication, the communication of gesture, of bodies, this language of bodies that's so important to your films—that all include important dance sequences, for instance. But I was wondering in terms of this... So was there, in fact, this language barrier between the actors when they're working? Did they understand? Did they know what the other characters were actually saying? Or not? How much did you leave untranslated while doing the performances?

Valeska Grisebach 18:21 

We really had to invent together the third language, because it was in a way, it's like, maybe a little bit idealistic situation. So we really had to think about how could be the dialogue to create this fantasy or this moment, [so] the audience really believes that they can communicate? So there was a written offer to the actors, but then we really had to think together, what is working? What signs? What international words? So this was a very interesting process together.

Haden Guest

In thinking about going back to the theme of the Western itself as a genre, I mean, I love the way that you have– There's a sense that the characters are playing roles, you know, the sense of Meinhard as this legionnaire, this lonely cowboy, but then at the same time, we have these moments where actually we think maybe he's not. Vincent, you know, with his black vest, seems to be the tough and just evil villain, and then there are different times when we realize he's actually this lonely, and sad man, you know, struggling with his relationships. And so the sense that you that we play with, I think, sort of roles and symbols throughout the film and wondering if you could, if you could talk about this idea of the Western as being a kind of, again... these roles that are performed, both knowingly and unknowingly and then also that dissolve and disappear.

Valeska Grisebach 19:57 

I mean, for me, I think my entrance to the genre wasn't the beginning. I mean, it's maybe a very romantic perspective, even if I don't see everything so romantic. And I mean, in the end, Western is a genre of the White man. So there’s this… And I don't know how... German is my perspective. I have a friend in Austria, she read the script, and she told me, “Oh, you are really [such a] romantic German!” For her… [LAUGHS] It was very interesting what she thought about the film! But I think for me, Western [deals] a lot with [the] staging of faces who are not allowed to show emotion, but then there's a lot of emotion behind, and maybe for the film, for me, it was very interesting because Western also deals a lot with this ambivalence. So there are characters searching for some kind of freedom or independence outside of society, but at the same time, maybe they're dreaming [of] coming home somewhere. So it's very ambivalent. Are you part of the society? Are you not part of the society? How close do you really dare to come to another person or to look into the eyes of somebody? And in the end, the two men, they really… They're very close. I think they share this kind of expectation that [there] may be also some kind of adventure there. So they're not so young anymore. And this strange place creates some kind of expectation of adventure or destiny, but it had to have a different set of strategies to get in contact. And I think in Western films, you have very often this kind of ambivalence, or...

Haden Guest 21:49

No, absolutely, I mean, something you bring that’s new or novel to the Western is, I think, a feminist perspective, this kind of critique of masculinity. There’s some really comic moments where the men are talking about, like, their hair and their conditioner, and then– but also the way in which they so naturally fall into this kind of male talk, you know, about guns and women and things like this. And it seems to me, you're gently like... you're bringing a gentle humor to this kind of conversation that feels also sort of from the outside. I was wondering if you could talk about the ways in which this film offers a kind of critique, if you will, of the kind of machismo that we're used to seeing in so many Westerns.

Valeska Grisebach 22:38   

I don't know if I have such a [critique], because I've had a lot of tenderness for the men, and I think I was really so fascinated by that. Maybe this is missing with the subtitles, because the prose—prose? I don't know how you say it in English—on the construction sites is so special and so adorable: how the men speak and what words they find, and so it's so full of fantasy. And it's sometimes very rough, but they're so close sometimes to each other. And so, yeah, in the end, I feel more like... “tenderness” maybe sounds a little bit stupid, but more this than anything else.

I think more [critique] maybe is in this kind of—which is interesting for me—in the European context, that countries have this history and subtexts. And if people meet, you have this expectation of who is superior and who [isn’t]? Not really, but this idea when you come from Germany with big machines to East Europe, that I don't know…

Haden Guest 23:59

Right? You're doing them a–

Valeska Grisebach 24:00

You know a bit more, but in the end, you don't know so, so much more. And I think this was...

Haden Guest 24:07   

Yeah, but that brings us of course, to the flag. I mean, this is again, Meinhard is this ambiguous character as you say, and then right at the beginning, he's hanging up the German flag, of course, this very heavy, you know, symbol, and especially here in Bulgaria, where of course, there's a history of, you know, German presence during a very dark, dark moment. And so t there seems to me, there's a certain risk... or you're taking certain risks in using symbols like this, which I really admire. And I was wondering if you could talk about the use of the flag in the film.

Valeska Grisebach 24:48 

Yeah, I only knew in the beginning the flag should be in the film, and this is one sign, and I think for me, it was also kind of a way to get in contact. Maybe a little bit aggressive way of the Germans to get in contact, but to say, okay, we are here. And it was interesting for me, in a kind of private moment, it was interesting when we were shooting the scene, what kind of attraction the flag put into the situation. The team in the image– Suddenly the flag, it was like– Sometimes when you are filming and you have a gun on set? The flag was also very attractive…

Haden Guest

Charged.

Valeska Grisebach

Charged. But then I didn't know what [we were] doing in the end with the flag. And so it was very [spontaneous]. So for this film, I really had to, again and again, think about the ending, and I couldn't find an ending. So it was the first time that we started shooting and without knowing exactly what will be the ending. And so we did it. But after one year, we did a kind of reshoot for some parts. But when we did it the first time, there was somebody with a flag. And at some point, I thought okay, and now we put the flag into the scene [during] a very fast [conversation] with three of the Bulgarian men. And so there was something in the air, and everybody [knew] a little bit what would be happening but not exactly. And then we had to see what was a flag...

Haden Guest 26:26

Bringing Vincent back in the river for his punishment. [SHE LAUGHS] Great. Let's take some questions from the audience. And we'll have microphones on either sides. If you wait for a microphone, we'll take this gentleman in the middle first. Great.

Audience 1 26:44

I thank you for the film, I really enjoyed it. I had a question precisely about the endings. Because in the Western genre, it's so often the cowboy goes out of the town into the... out of society, you know, like…

Haden Guest

Out into the horizon, right...

Audience 1

The horizon, and he can't integrate into the society. But here there's a kind of a tenuous integration where he dances and there's a girl somewhere there. So I was wondering, what other endings did you consider for the film?

Valeska Grisebach 27:21

No, it was... I always thought it's the other way around: that he is not riding into the horizon. So he's coming to the [society]. He's trying to get in contact with all his, maybe, shame and... When we were filming, I always told Meinhard, “Okay, when you are here, now in Bulgaria for your role or character, it's a little bit like Walt Disney. You can invent yourself. You can be everybody. You can take all the emotions of the other people.” But there are some moments when it breaks, and people start to realize also [his] weakness, and so he also gets a little bit guilty. And for me it was always very important for the ending when he's full of shame or ashamed, and that he could just hide and maybe never again be there, [but] he decides to go back. And this was clear from the beginning because I said okay, now is the moment he maybe really can get in contact with the people. But I never knew exactly what– For example, I never knew who's the one who's punish– who is beating him. So one time Adrian beat him. [LAUGHS] One time. It was like a joke. Everybody, everybody... So we have very different scenes of who is beating Meinhard. [LAUGHS]

Haden Guest

[LAUGHING] Poor Meinhard.

Valeska Grisebach

And so there was one role: the one with the mustache? So this was a character who really didn't work. Maybe in the script he was working, but not in the filming process. So we had to change [it] also in the editing. But what we did for the reshooting was that we filmed... I said, Okay, now it's really better [that] it comes really from a group, from the society, and not from one personal character.” But when I was writing, it was like, not like a challenge... But I also had internalized from the Western genre that in the ending there should be—how do you say? When two people in the ending…? Showdown! I'm sorry, it's just because I'm tired.

And then I thought, okay, there should be a showdown, a showdown, a showdown, and it was really like– It was– My fantasy was imploding. And it was so boring—for me. I mean, in other films, I really like showdowns—but then I realized, okay, it's really about something else, about the thing I told before, about that, for me, it's the questioning for both of these men, how much do they really dare to come close to other people or to this kind of society. And I think this is a moment they share in the ending, so... And now Meinhard is on the floor, beaten, but maybe Vincent also could have been beaten. And so I decided this is for me, the more interesting moment for the ending.

Haden Guest

Nina?

Audience 2 30:52   

Thank you. I thought this was a wonderful film, and I was so moved at the end. And at the end, I was reminded of the ending of Zorba the Greek, which also ends with a communal dance, and is also about a male friendship, and–

Valeska Grisebach

I’m sorry? I didn’t–

Haden Guest 

Zorba the Greek [INAUDIBLE WHISPER]

Valeska Grisebach

Oh, okay, yeah, yep.

Audience 2

And to me when they were talking about freedom, the ending of the film seemed to me that the freedom was an internal freedom that was manifested in this man who was so contained in his ability to dance and to be with people. And I thought it was marvelous. Thank you so much.

Valeska Grisebach

Thank you very much.

Haden Guest 31:37   

Other questions or comments? Yes, right here in front, Alex.

Audience 3 31:44   

Thank you so much. Thank you for this wonderful experience. So in the very end of the film, on the titles, it says kind of–

Haden Guest

Actually, could you just… a little slowly?

Audience 3

Yeah, sorry about that..

Haden Guest

That’d be great…

Audience 3

Sorry. At the very end of the film, on the titles, it says [UNKNOWN] no animals were harmed. And it was really wondering about the powerful scene with the horse. Because it seems to be such a central relationship between men and nature. And of course, the Germans march into this village, and they take the horses, they almost attack the women. And hence, sort of the second part of my question is, what kind of Westerns were you thinking? Were you thinking of specific films because I immediately thought of High Noon, and that sort of confrontation between one character and the whole village, but also more recent revisionist Hollywood films, The Revenant... And again, the role of nature in this film, so I was just wondering if you had specific films in mind and maybe the “Easterns”? [LAUGHS]

Valeska Grisebach 32:47   

So I think, [simultaneously] I think about two Westerns. One is The Gunfighter by Henry King which is also about this very elegant figure, Gregory Peck, who tries to come back. So in a way, he's an older gunfighter and he wants to– Maybe you know the film, but for me, it was very interesting this man who tries to come back to his wife and son, but there's some something sticking to him: his history. And then Winchester ‘73 was also very interesting to me because there are [such] different characters: this figure who’s a coward and then James Stewart as a man who is a farmer boy in a way, but gets attracted to his revenge idea. And there’s one scene [by] a fireplace one night when his friend asks him, “Can you imagine to go back now to your cows? Cattle?” And so, for example, these two were also important.

Haden Guest 34:03

I guess it was also a question about the horse and just about the role of, I guess, about the role of the horse in the film that she was also asking.

Valeska Grisebach 34:14 

Yeah. So in the end, there were two horses. So the main horse was also a non-professional actor, [who] was really like, “Okay, take me!”  And so– [LAUGHS] Also, only for the stunt scenes, there was a professional horse from Sofia coming. And, I mean, I think they really did [know] what [to do] with a horse, but it's not a beautiful situation. They built these kind of– [UNKNOWN GERMAN WORD] I don't know? Sand ramps? So that a horse is falling not so [hard]. But it’s not nice in a way, because the horse knew after one time... Okay now at the moment. And so we only did I think twice, but the horse was fine afterwards.

Haden Guest 35:08   

Other questions or comments… for Valeska Grisebach?

I mean, I did want to ask about dance because this is something that we will see in your other films too. Dance represents a kind of community, a kind of utopia that's oftentimes quite fragile in your films too. So here it's placed at the end. It seems to be a happy ending, but at the same time the song ends, and you know, people go their different ways. I was wondering if you could talk about dance, because the other thing is it's also about bodily communication, nonverbal communication, which I think is very important in your films.

Valeska Grisebach 35:48

Yeah, I mean, l adore, of course, dance scenes from other films, for example, Beau travail by Claire Denis, or, I mean, there are a lot of other beautiful dance scenes, and I think dancing is always very moving, because it's a very personal moment. And for me, sometimes it seems like people do step on a little stage and they express themselves. And yeah, so for me, it's sometimes a little bit of a star moment, or I don't know, it's a very special moment. But for Western it was in the ending, so I thought, okay, again, a dance scene? So this was also questioning the ending. I thought, ugh.. but in the end, it was right to do it like this, because I think in Bulgaria, this moment of music and dancing is a very strong moment. And that he tries to be part of this was right for the ending.

Haden Guest 36:50

Great. Okay. Any other final questions or comments? I mean, you've had a very long day, and…

Valeska Grisebach

I’m just sorry about my English!

Haden Guest

No, no, no, not at all. But we'll be back again tomorrow night and Sunday. So maybe we'll just see you all then. Thank you so much.

Valeska Grisebach 37:07

Thank you.

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