Longtime Pam Grier fan Quentin Tarantino pays sincere tribute to her impact on cinema and culture with his version of a Foxy/Coffy scenario updated to the more circumspect climate of the 90s. By changing the female protagonist in Elmore Leonard’s novel Rum Punch from white to black, injecting his cleverly nervous, rapid-fire repartee into the script, and casting Grier in the lead, Tarantino creates a smart, electric retort to Hollywood’s neglect of its finest. Even Tarantino’s usual casualties run relatively low as Jackie—still sassy, still sultry and fearless, but a little older and a little more tired—no longer needs to conspicuously destroy all evil. She simply wants to retrieve a life she has continually been denied and attempts to do so via an intricately crafted plot to divert funds from Samuel L. Jackson’s sociopathic gun smuggler into her own purse. Breathing well-deserved new life into both Grier’s and Robert Forster’s careers, the tightly scripted film marks a high point for each of its three stars and lovingly tops off Grier’s record-breaking list of films with her character’s name as the title. – BG
Audio transcription
For more interviews and talks, visit the Harvard Film Archive Visiting Artists Collection page.
John Quackenbush 0:00
October 8, 2016, the Harvard Film Archive screened Jackie Brown. This is the audio recording of the introduction and the post-screening Q and A. Participating are HFA Director Haden Guest, HFA Programmer David Pendleton, and actor Pam Grier.
David Pendleton 0:18
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to a very special night here at the Harvard Film Archive. My name is David Pendleton. I’m the programmer here, overseeing the public screenings. And I'm here to introduce our very, very special guest, one of the most special guests we've ever had here. But first, I want to make a couple of announcements. As always, at the HFA we value an immersive environment. And we appreciate not having to deal with the distractions of glowing screens and noises from other electronic devices. So make sure, please, that all your devices are turned off. Leave them off for the duration of the event. Also, in honor of our guest, and your neighbors, we ask that you not photograph or record the event in any way, either. Tonight, we're here to honor a remarkable, singular cinematic personage in the form of Ms. Pam Grier with a screening of Jackie Brown.
[APPLAUSE]
This screening takes place in the context of a retrospective of Ms. Grier's work, here at the Harvard Film Archive, co-sponsored by the Hutchins Center for African and African American Research, which just had its W. E. B. Du Bois Medal ceremony, and Ms. Grier was one of the honorees at that award ceremony.
[APPLAUSE]
I want to give a special thanks to Dr. Henry Louis Gates, Jr, the Director of the Hutchins Center for African and African American Research.
[APPLAUSE]
He led an amazing conversation with Ms. Grier last night. Tonight, you have a couple of film geeks doing the conversation. Myself and my partner in crime, my boss, my colleague, Mr. Haden Guest, the director of the Harvard Film Archive.
[APPLAUSE]
But back to the thanks. I also want to thank Abby Wolf and Matt Weinberg at the Hutchins Center for all that they've done to coordinate Ms. Grier's travel and her visit here. Sure. [LAUGHS] Go for it, go for it!
[APPLAUSE]
The blaxploitation cycle that brought Pam Grier to fame more or less ended with the 1970s and the rise of Reaganomics. But Pam Grier's career didn't end then, she went on to interesting roles in a wide variety of films, including Fort Apache, The Bronx; Something Wicked This Way Comes; the acclaimed indie film On the Edge; Mars Attacks; as well as a number of television appearances. So she kept up a varied and really vital and interesting career. This in the face of those who had dismissed the work that brought her to fame as dreck. There's a famous quote from Marlene Dietrich talking about the films of Joseph Sternberg, where she dismisses them as kitsch and dreck. To Ms. Grier's credit, she took ownership of the films that she made that were called blaxploitation. She understood their value, and when they came to be rediscovered, she was poised to take advantage of it. And so, Quentin Tarantino certainly noticed the value and built the vehicle of Jackie Brown around her, as an adaptation of an Elmore James novel. And I personally think it’s Tarantino's best film. It's a film full of people, as opposed to cinematic references, although there are plenty of those as well. And I think he saw in Pam Grier, what the camera sees in her and what many cinephiles see in her, which is what Jean Epstein, the French filmmaker, called photogénie. Something the camera captures, it goes beyond charisma, that really goes to the sort of realm of truth and reality that the cinema can do. And there's something about Pam Grier, when she’s on screen, you watch her and you believe her. And she has a special integrity that's also a vulnerability, that's also a lot of dignity. And so, I can do nothing better at this point, than turn the microphone over to the person who will join us. We'll come back to a conversation after the screening. Ms. Pam Grier.
[ENTHUSIASTIC APPLAUSE AND CHEERS]
Pam Grier 5:43
Thank you. Thank you. I see you ready to party tonight! It's Satur-day! And we had a ball last night. Professor Henry “Skip” Gates! Thank you, everyone who is responsible for my recognition of... bringing my narrative of the Black west to films. And hey, you’re back! Where's mom? There's mom! I ran into them on the street. And they went “Pam Grier!” And I went [GASPS]. [LAUGHTER] I thought it was, you know, a son, or boyfriend, that I had walked away from. [LAUGHTER] I wasn't sure, I get a little nervous when, “Oh no, I know I wasn't pregnant, okay it’s good.” [LAUGHTER] But I did have a wonderful, you know, journey. And the reason why I'm here is I wanted to thank you for supporting my career for forty-seven years and the film industry. Without you there is no industry, without the audience and your narratives. And so I thank you for that, because you provide employment, we document narratives, culture, of who we are, we get to feel. And I know many of you– I will ask you questions. And please, when I come back, ask me questions about anything and everything. If any of you know my personal narrative, the trauma that I had gone through, about today, when many of you are now trying to introduce your uncles to me who are single. And your fathers and brothers and, and many of them asked me about the guns that have been given to me by, you know, people who I’ve worked with in film. But I tell them, and you can tell them, when they come to meet me, that, “Don't worry about my guns, just worry about my chainsaw.” [LAUGHTER] Yes, I will prepare my wood for winter. And not the kind of wood you guys are thinking about. So!
[LAUGHTER]
Anyway, Jackie Brown is really one of my favorites. And Quentin is a dear friend of mine. And we discuss many different ways of shooting a scene. And I have wonderful tales to tell you about working with him, and Jackie Brown. So I won't ruin it for you. But you will see scenes that are magical, that he wanted to replicate scenes from the 70s, with a low budget. Long scenes, because we didn't have the post-production money to cut. So he said, “We never made mistakes in the 70s, we were so glad to work! So we were always near perfect!” And that's what Quentin says, “That's what I want, cuz there are scenes that are gonna be, I don't want a cut to cover a mistake. So I want this to be my Foxy Brown. And don't tell my fans that this is the female side of my brain.” And I said, “I won't tell them.”
[LAUGHTER]
And he thanks you, from wherever he is right now. And I am so grateful to him for recognizing my work. But I think if I hadn't have done theater for four years, Frankie and Johnny in the Clair de Lune, where I was naked on stage, as you probably know the play. I saw Kathy Bates and Ed Harris doing it at The Manhattan Theatre Club in New York and I thought they were wearing body suits, and they weren't! They were really naked! And Kathy, I took it from her, the cue not to shave or wax, so it made it really interesting. And Fool for Love and The Piano Lesson, in which I played piano, I composed a song for August Wilson who selects the artists who work in his performances. It’s his production. So, you will see a lot of things I hope will give you food for thought to ask interesting questions, as I will ask you as well. So we'll have a wonderful night tonight. And so enjoy Jackie Brown. And I have a poster at home from the Czech Republic. It's “Jackie Brownova.”
[LAUGHTER]
And it's wonderful in Czech and Japanese. So enjoy tonight. Can't wait to come back and hear your thoughts.
[APPLAUSE]
John Quackenbush 10:40
And now, Haden Guest.
Haden Guest 10:41
… the incredible presence that is Jackie Brown. And, it's a figure though, that also reflects on the history of you as the star of these incredible blaxploitation films. And so I was wondering if you could talk about the process and the kind of conversations that gave birth to Jackie Brown?
Pam Grier 11:04
Well, I need another drink.
[LAUGHTER]
Haden Guest 11:05
There it is.
[LAUGHTER]
Pam Grier 11:08
Quentin had been studying films, all films, I think, since he was like two.
[LAUGHTER]
Haden Guest 11:18
Younger than that!
Pam Grier 11:19
And he had a fondness for the films in the 60s and 70s, especially my films, that were made with an economy of production. And he wanted to replicate– Jackie Brown was his Foxy Brown. And he wanted to shoot the scenes that were timeless. The vehicles were timeless, the wardrobe, the mall. He had painted the apartment of Jackie Brown like five or six times, so it would look just right with that bright blue uniform. And he was like, “Pam, I want you to go, you know, so I want to see what it's going to look like. Would she have...? What type of wallpaper? What type of things would she collect along her travels that would make– So go to the apartment and make it your own.” And he knew that I could do that. And I think, since I had performed in plays for about four years, done very, very profound theater. It was Fool for Love, the Sam Shepard play, where it's a brother and sister in love. And the play, Terrence McNally, Frankie and Johnny in the Clair de Lune, where you're nude on stage underneath the sheets. And I didn't break out in hives. But I think it was a body of work that convinced him that I could work with him. And he knew that I rehearse. And he won't work with just anybody. You have to rehearse and he wants you to be edgy, short of really stabbing someone. And he knew that since I was a student of Stanislavski. Stanislavski said, you know, “It's a very, very real, very authentic… When I say ‘slap da bitch,’ you slap da bitch!”
Haden Guest 13:13
[LAUGHS] That's not exactly what he said!
Pam Grier 13:15
No, but in terms of his work, he was extremely method. Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, Gene Hackman, the, you know, Lee Strasberg, Neighborhood Playhouse, the Method... You're very, very, very, very real, very real. Short of pulling back. You don't want to draw blood. But there has been some real slapping on the sets. And there probably has been some real sex on the sets. I haven't done it. I don't think there's enough KY jelly in the world to do a take two!
[LAUGHTER]
You know, can you imagine? No, I couldn't do it. But some actors have. And it’s not me, I swear! And I didn't have to give Quentin any. We didn't have to, I didn't have to be his girlfriend or anything. But he had such an empathy, such a respect for my work. And that I would elevate it. Would take any work and make it better than what it was.
Haden Guest 14:17
But in terms of like… There are all these elements that I recognize now in the film as being autobiographical, in a sense. You're an airline steward in this and you spoke about, even just last night, about your father and his struggles and his work in the airline industry, you know, and so you are flying now. The photos that we see in the apartment that you know, these childhood images.
Pam Grier 14:38
My family.
Haden Guest 14:40
Exactly. And then also this figure–
Pam Grier 14:41
Oh he likes that. So you feel comfortable in your environment, by bringing your family photos. And I would bring stories, narratives, that I had lived and survived from, into my work, often as subtext. Maybe not a part of the story, but subtext, so I'd have something to fall back on.
Haden Guest 15:00
So were you telling those to Quentin Tarantino? How did those come into the story?
Pam Grier 15:06
When he writes, you can't change a line. But you bring to your work, to your element of, “Quentin, here's why I would do that. I'm very comfortable with arms—firearms—because I grew up– My grandfather taught me how to use firearms.” And so there is a scene when Ordell comes to Jackie's apartment, to kill her.
Haden Guest 15:34
One of the great scenes, yeah.
Pam Grier 15:38
And Quentin had said prior, he says, “Pam, I want you and Sam to not drop a line because I want this to be a replica of a scene from a 70s film.” And it's a fifteen-minute scene. The minute he comes in the door, it's a dance. So it took three days to light that scene. There were pin lights behind books, plants, baskets. There were lights all over. And we had to rehearse it and hit our mark just right, because Sam would turn off the light. And I said, “Why would he turn off the light? At my apartment?” And so he says, “No, that's how I... Okay, don't. Pam. Because I'm the one that's going to ask questions.” And I said, “Okay, it's your movie, you wrote it.” And he said, “You're going to go here, you're going to go there. The light from the refrigerator is going to open up.” And I said, “Okay.” “And here's what I want you to do, Pam. I want you to go over to your purse, I want you to bend over, get the cigarette out and lighter, and light the cigarette, turn around and sneak the gun out of the purse, Max Cherry’s gun, and put it in your waistband, but I don't want to see it.” And I went, “Really?”
[LAUGHTER]
“So I'm gonna sit here in this chair, and I want you to practice.” I practiced for four hours. Until Quentin said, “I saw it, I saw the gun. Do it again.”
Haden Guest 17:03
So you were actually putting the gun in your waist?
Pam Grier 17:05
Yes, I had to turn and put in the gun, you'll see. And I put my hand on my hip and look like my hand was on my hip, but it was the gun behind my back. And you can't see it. So he made me do it for four hours until he says, “Okay, I didn't see the gun. Now we can shoot it.” I said, “Now I'm too tired!”
[LAUGHTER]
“Really?” he says. I say, “Oh my god!” But that's how he works. And it was so wonderful because in real life, you wouldn't want him to see the gun. If he saw it, Ordell was gonna strangle me. But the great thing about it was, when I was rehearsing with Sam, we didn't have the gun. The master of arms didn't give me the gun on the set. So Quentin said, you know, “You use your hand.” I said, “I use my hand, to put my hand in Sam's crotch?” And I don't know if Sam wore underwear, but I kind of became very friendly with his family jewels. And the first time I stuck my hand in between his legs, both of us, we both went, “Whooo!”
[LAUGHTER]
And this is the moment where you're very intimate as an actor and you protect one another and you don't comment on the size and anything else. And I didn't. But I must say if I did.
[LAUGHTER]
I'd be datin’ Sam and wrecking a marriage, but I didn't. And those are the intimacies you do get to enjoy and you keep to yourself, and, and…
[LAUGHTER]
David Pendleton 18:35
Until now.
Pam Grier 18:36
And, and, wonderful moments. Thank you, Quentin! Hey! But to have done theater, such difficult plays, and develop my craft, I think Quentin felt confident enough to write, to spend two years of his life writing Jackie Brown for me.
Haden Guest 18:58
This was a very personal project for you.
Pam Grier 19:02
Very personal. And it was his female, you know, side of the brain. And I didn't want to disappoint him. So I was completely off book, because I didn't want to drop a line in front of Robert De Niro. Or Michael Keaton, whom I knew before he became an actor. That’s Beetlejuice! And Sam Jackson and Robert Forster and Bridget. And we were so wonderfully excited to work with Quentin! Not all actors want to rehearse, and if they don't, they won't work with him. He's very selective. You got to work as hard as he does. And if you don't, he don't want you. I said, “Thank you!” He recognized my discipline. That's one of the greatest things you can have, is someone recognizes your work, of his stature. And there's not a lot of women that work with him. You know, he's very... I mean, he did interview me for Pulp Fiction, but I was way taller than Eric Stoltz who was gonna play the boyfriend. I said “Uh, yeah, okay, this is not gonna work. Hi Eric! Nice to see you. So I'm supposed to be your girlfriend. Really? Okay, rest your head on my nipple. Okay, so...
[LAUGHTER]
Anyway, he knew it wouldn't work, but he thought of me because of my meeting with him. That he would work with me in the future because I fit his family, his work, his dynamic.
Haden Guest
Absolutely.
David Pendleton 20:43
Well, and also his love of cinema. I mean, I think because you're such a-
Pam Grier 20:46
I love it more!
[LAUGHTER]
David Pendleton 20:48
But I think you're such an iconic presence that I think he–
Pam Grier 20:50
I'm older and I saw more movies, that's all I could tell you. You know, ‘cause he would say something, I’d say, “Bertolucci.” You know? He’d say, “Da-da-da.” “Fellini.” “Da-da-da.” “Truffaut.” You know? And he said, “God!” I said, “I see three or four movies a day. I don't even do the dishes, you know, for the week.” I just love movies so much. I think as a young girl growing up in Jim Crow of America, and you see all these wonderful actors and movies with clothing, and foreign countries, and sports cars, and you know, everything happening. You just... it takes you away. I love it when you have a moment to just leave your reality and go away somewhere with someone. And my favorite– You might ask me what my favorite movie is, besides Jackie Brown, is Sophie's Choice. Someone put it on my doorstep because I had mentioned it on The David Letterman Show as my favorite movie. And there it was. And I know how hard, how difficult it was for Meryl Streep to land this role. They didn't want an American actress; she wanted the role. They wouldn't see her; she trained, she practiced, she studied. She changed her teeth, her hair, and she became this woman. And she went and forced her way into Pakula's office and said, “I want to audition.” And she was this woman. And she won the role. And I don't know if I'll ever get a role that profound, but I admired her and I want to work with her one day, I hope, before I'm in a walker and my teeth fall out. But that's one of my favorite movies. And the next is Raging Bull. You know, I love Scorsese. And I love it in black-andwhite, and the whole, his style, which is, “Raw!” I like that.
David Pendleton 22:43
But it seems to me that Jackie Brown rests as much on your performance as Sophie's Choice does on Meryl Streep's. And so much of the film is this series of bravura scenes between you and three of the male actors in the film, Michael Keaton, Robert Forster and Samuel Jackson.
Pam Grier 23:03
Mmhmm. Different beats.
David Pendleton 23:04
I was wondering–
Pam Grier 23:03
They’re all different instruments.
David Pendleton 23:04
Right! I mean, they're very different actors, and I wonder if you could talk about the challenge of doing one character smoothly against three such different actors.
Pam Grier 23:13
It was study, it was rehearsal, it was preparation the day before. And I would come to the set, and I direct myself. I'm a director, writer, and I watch the actors, and I watch their beats. And they are different instruments. You have Sam Jackson, is: [MIMICS SAMUEL JACKSON’S STYLE OF SPEECH] “Du-du-dukka-du-dukka-du-du-du!” And you have to hear, and listen, pay attention, watch his eyes. And then you have Michael Keaton in the interrogation room, where I knew I had– Michael is, he's rapidfire, he's kinetic, he's like... and not everybody can work with Michael. They'll slow him down and it frustrates him. He won't want to work with you. And if you saw Beetlejuice, whoo! He should have won an Oscar for that, because he was all over the place. I don't think he could do it again, but I think they're doing a Part 2, so, and I want to be in it, with Tim Burton, right?
David Pendleton 24:06
Well, speaking of somebody who should have won an Oscar, you were robbed for it.
Haden Guest 24:09
Please! Please!
[APPLAUSE]
Pam Grier 24:11
Oh, thank you, thank you.
David Pendleton 24:14
In any case.
Pam Grier 24:15
And then, in the interrogation scene, I wanted to make sure I would have this tension. So I wouldn't go pee for eight hours. And I sat there, and Michael was jumping in my face, and he can be scary! And I said, “Oh, I have to be a bitch too! Okay?” And I'm smoking, and I don't smoke. And we used a real cigarette, and it was burning my throat. So I had to deal with smoking, I had– They wouldn't let me leave to go to the bathroom. They're trying to get information out of me. And they're pressuring me. And I’m irritated–
David Pendleton 24:44
Is this the scene at the end?
Pam Grier 24:45
This is the interrogation.
David Pendleton 24:46
With the “No Smoking” sign?
Pam Grier 24:48
Yeah, yes. When I go from the mall and they arrest me. And Michael was, he was in your face like a shark! I wanted to hit him with the lamp! And I said, “No, that's not in this scene.”
[LAUGHTER]
David Pendleton 25:00
And he grabs his own crotch in that scene!
Pam Grier 25:01
Yes, he does. He tried to distract me! Did you see him walking there? And he goes, he grabs himself, he grabs it. You know, it's like, you ain’t hip hop, you know. He goes and then he leans up against the wall. “I saw that! Trying to steal my scene!” So I knew I had to be good, you know? But it was real! It was real! It would happen, you know? And so we had a wonderful, wonderful time. And then finally, after eight hours, “I gotta go. I gotta go to the bathroom. This is killing me.” And when I have to pee, my neck hurts. So it really worked. I had the stress up in here, and I wanted to get out of there, I wanted to do the scene. And then with Robert Forester, it's [LONG AND DRAWN-OUT] “Hi, Jackie.”
[LAUGHTER]
“I don't know. Well, you know.”
[LAUGHTER]
So they all had different beats. Did you see Robert De Niro as Louis? When he's sitting at the bar, after I come and have this argument with Sam. He's sitting looking at the phone. He's waiting for someone to answer. And he's looking, and he's turning, and he's like, “Lou-is?” He was brilliant! And I would sit there and watch him. Robert De Niro? And I started laughing. I was enjoying his performance, so much. Usually he's powerful and out there, and stuff. And he's like, space cadet guy…
[LAUGHTER]
Haden Guest 26:27
Well, to pick up on, you know, David's question about these, three different actors, these three different rhythms. I mean, one of the, I think, incredible things about the film is this tension. There's this kind of, there's this intimacy with you, with all of these different characters.
Pam Grier 26:44
Yes! Yes!
Haden Guest 26:46
And there's a suggestion that there's a kind of intimacy, there's a kind of love almost. And we were talking about this before... Then the Samuel Jackson relationship..
Pam Grier 26:55
What do you mean, when I put my hand between his crotch?
Haden Guest 26:58
No! I'm talking about intimacy! But no, there's something about this question, about maybe there was a relationship before? We talked about how...
Pam Grier 27:06
I asked Quentin and I will ask you. Do you think Jackie and Ordell had had a relationship? A flirtation?
Haden Guest 27:21
Raise your hand if you think they had a relationship beforehand. Only one or two?
Pam Grier 27:30
Do you think that there was some type of one-time and it didn't work? The sex wasn't good, or he took her out for dinner and she didn't like his hair, or the beer.
Haden Guest 27:37
They’re not buying it. [LAUGHS]
Pam Grier 27:40
Did they have a fling? Did they have anything going on before? And it was interesting, because some people asked, “Did they? Did they sleep together?”
David Pendleton 27:47
And he likes to control the women that he's with. I mean, I guess there's this sort of battle between him and Bridget Fonda. But it would have been an even bigger battle between him and Jackie Brown.
Pam Grier 27:56
Mmm hmm. But I think Jackie said, “No, you can look at this.”
[LAUGHTER]
“But I'm gonna ship the money. So you can just look. You can play with the other girls, but I'm too smart for that.” Cuz she'd already been with the captain who sent her to jail. So she was pretty smart, and she was becoming more street, more savvy, with men. And she was losing more. You know? She was goin’ down and not having very much, so she realized. “You can look but you can't touch,” that kind of thing. And then she became his partner, his equal. And she had to prove and stand up to him, and lie to him, and convince him. Cuz he's a killer! He came to kill her.
Haden Guest 28:43
Yeah, we could take some questions from the audience.
David Pendleton 28:46
There’s a hand in the middle and then we got a couple of hands up here. If you can wait till a microphone comes to you. The woman in the blue, in the middle there. They're passing a microphone to you.
Pam Grier 28:55
And while that mike is coming, you want to stand up and give us a little…?
David Pendleton 29:01
Then we can see you a little better. You don't have to. Just turn it, yeah, turn it on.
Haden Guest 29:07
No, it's on. Just stand up. Yeah.
Audience 1 29:09
I was just gonna comment, with the last question, which was about having a fling with him or something. I think Jackie's character is too intelligent. And she was so different than all the other women in the movie. So no, I don't think they had a fling. I think she was too intelligent. And I think that he respected her for her intelligence, which is why they were more partners than any kind of a romance at all. But you were just wonderful in it...
Pam Grier 29:36
Oh, he tried. He tried to dress up for her but it just didn't work.
[LAUGHTER]
Even when he said, “You know what, Jackie you so fine you need nigger repellent, you know, up in here.” You know, trying to flirt with her. Make her feel good. And it didn't work. You know how people compliment you like, oh, he's, that’s some... “Love that dress. Love that.” No, it don't work, you know? Yeah. But he was always trying, because that was his style. He was a pimp.
David Pendleton 30:07
Okay, there's, yes, there's a gentleman here. And then you'll be next. Raise your hand again, so... No not you
Audience 2 30:15
Hi. Wonderful to meet you. With the exception of maybe Angela Davis and Farrah Fawcett, I think maybe you have the most famous hair in history.
[LAUGHTER]
And I think it's really interesting to watch the film, just on the basis of hair decisions and the things that a woman might think of when she's just gotten out of jail. So I was just wondering, what conversations might have taken place about that? How much of that was you?
Pam Grier 30:53
Creative?
Audience 2 30:53
Yeah.
Pam Grier 30:54
Well, when you go to jail, and you shower, and you've been there. And I did go to the jail, I went to the jail to see what it was like. And it smelled like urine and periods in the women's jail, and humanity. And you lose everything, and they put everything you have in a bag, your clothing. And you come out smelling and I wanted my hair to go home. You know? And we practiced, you know, how would I feel coming out? And how I saw other women coming out of jail, been in there for three weeks. And I lost a lot of energy. And I lost a lot of my soul and everything's gone. I may not have a job. How do I keep my apartment? So Quentin and I, he works with you and we had those conversations. And no makeup, hair right out of the shower, just dried, nappy. I stink. You know, I want to smoke, I want to figure out what's going on. And we had that discussion. And I always do– The hair has its own life as well in a scene. With Jackie Brown, her hair, when you first see her going to work, it's blown dry, it's curled. It's all bouncy. And then you see her come out of jail and it's limp and stinky. And it made me feel like, boy, I've hit bottom once again. And how do I rise? Now I gotta figure a way. This is desperation. I'm in a corner now. Like a rat in a corner. So we always had those. Even down to the fingernail polish. Even down to– I have a character, for example, in one movie that is not a Quentin movie, Escape From L.A., I let my armpit hair grow out because I was playing a man. And it tickled.
[LAUGHTER]
I let it grow out this long. Eww. And I don't date anymore. So I’ve let my hair on my legs grow. So anyway, I don't shave. It keeps men away, anyway. So anyway.
Haden Guest 33:14
The prison scene was also a tribute to your earliest films.
Pam Grier 33:18
[SINGING] “I know a long time woman.”
[LAUGHTER]
[APPLAUSE]
And do you know Quentin surprised me? I didn't know he was gonna put that in there. And when we're doing the scene, the music sound comes on and I... Tears. Because he's so romantic and he's so wonderful. And I gave him the Les Baxter sheet music of it just recently when he won his star on the Hollywood Fame, and he’s framed it. I don't have one, I wanted him to have it, as a gift. But that was a surprise. An endearing surprise of his fondness for those movies and my work in the past. I was a skinny little kid, frightened of losing a job because I wasn't an actor just yet. And I was working for tuition. I didn't want to be fired. I wanted to do three Roger Corman movies to save for college. Had no idea how to be an actor, until I read Stanislavski. And I knew if I don't read this book, and respect the actor, I cannot be the actor. And every time someone said, “a B movie,” Stanislavski says there's no such thing as a B movie, or a small part, or a small movie. It's the element of reality, if you can come as close as you can.”
Haden Guest 34:39
And you did. I mean, thanks to your incredible and indelible performances, you always rose above and actually transformed every film that you've been in, including those very early Corman B films. So thank you so much.
Pam Grier 34:53
Well, I knew that when I did the work... you're oblivious to that– A wall. And you can be shot in the leg and bleeding, you wouldn't know it. You know, you’re so there. And I realized... Last night, Henry Louis Gates, who's not here at this time, he asked me, when did I realize I was an actor? And it was when I had done theater. Fool for Love and Frankie and Johnny in the Clair de Lune. And I wasn't an actor for fame, or money, or, you know, pop culture. I really was the actor. And I remember, when I was doing a play for the Negro Ensemble, which was Crossroads Theatre, I stayed at the Rutgers’ campus, in an apartment. And I'm from Colorado, I had a backpack and I was hiking through the snow to the theater, and all the other actors are taking limousines and stuff. And I was like... you know, to prepare. And I knew that I was the actor. You know, I really loved my craft, I loved the industry. If you own it, and love what you do, people like what you do. They want that! They want you to, you know, to... They want some of it.
David Pendleton 36:12
I was going to ask a question, and you may have answered it, in a way, but I'm curious about the different kinds of pressures, or preparation, when you're doing a star vehicle. Thinking about films, like the star vehicles, like the films that we’re showing in the program, or Jackie Brown. And when you're working as part of an ensemble, like in The L Word, for instance, or in Mars Attacks, or some of these other sort of, like, more group pieces. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about the different kinds of pressures, or pleasures, or pains of, you know, a starring role, versus being part of an ensemble.
Pam Grier 36:46
There's no such thing as a star. Even the smallest day player is a star, for me, because they're bringing something to the fabric. And when I did The L Word, and I felt so free and liberated to be able to kiss a female in the show. And I know that other actresses, one was, who had been hired to play Jennifer Beals’ girlfriend, and she thought she could play a lesbian. And she couldn't, she couldn't kiss Jennifer. And I understood her background and how she felt and they rehired, recast. And there was some discomfort and also in seeing some like– as a child I was, you know, raped at six, I had another attack at nineteen. And then a third one, I fought off. And there are scenes and films that I won't take because of revisiting. But when we did the the rape scene, I think was in Foxy Brown or Coffy, the nudity, I had already prepared myself for it. And not all actresses can revisit. And I remember when Philip Michael Thomas, we were doing a scene in Miami Vice, and it was a love scene. And we were trying to figure out how to work out the positions, and he was on top of me and he held my hands down. And I freaked out, cause I went back to when I was a little girl being held down. And I just, “Stop.” And I said, “You can't hold my hands together.” And I was upset for the rest of the day. And then other times, no. So it's not something that you can do every day. You have to think it through, and at least talk to the director, and say, “How far are we going to go? Because I've had this issue? And can I do it?” And he said, “Well, you know, we'll take it a step at a time. Because we're really dealing with your mental state. A real human moment.” And so in some people, they just crack on the set and they have to recover. And maybe a body double has to come in and they have to shoot the body double, and shoot something else later, because they're into the film and it'll be financial ruin if they fire and stop it. And the whole thing you know falls apart. So you want to protect, in kind, your actor. And every director has an intimate conversation with each actor. No one knows what he says to each one of us. But he, Quentin, will uplift and help you get to where you need to go. And if you can't, he'll work with you. And most directors will do that.
Haden Guest 39:47
Let's take a question right here from there.
David Pendleton 39:49
I promised this woman in the middle.
Haden Guest 39:51
Yeah, exactly, that’s why we’re waiting for the mike. Can you pass the microphone please?
David Pendleton 39:54
Or Steven, one of you? Yeah, look to your... there you go.
Audience 3 39:58
Wow. Hi Pam.
Pam Grier 39:59
Hi.
Audience 3 40:00
I love your book, a lot. And I love your Twitter account. And I was reading in your book that you say that there's a scene in Jackie Brown where you had started to cry and Quentin Tarantino paused and suggested, or maybe directed, that you not cry. And you discuss in the book the problem of seeing crying as synonymous with weakness. And that really struck me. But I'm also thinking really kind of contemporary. Your Twitter is always so positive, and so motivating and inspirational to your followers, and I love it. And I'm thinking, maybe, what do you see as Jackie's best qualities? And what do you see as the best qualities in the women right now that you're looking up to? Because I know what your best qualities are.
Pam Grier 40:42
Survival!
Audience 3 40:43
To name one, for sure!
Pam Grier 40:45
Survival, to grow, to not be victimized, even though you've had these issues, these events that happened, and you don't fall into victimisation, you rise above it. And you use it. She used every experience that she had to survive, to not fall in another trap. Because now she's down to the lowest job, making 16,000 a year, you know. She now doesn't really have a car. Everything she has is, okay, bare bones. She can't even buy CDs, you know. She's playing vinyl and her records are in a crate. And she's forty-seven years old. And so she really has to use experiences to rise above and get ahead. And I do that! Living on a ranch by myself. How I, you know, I understand weather, thermodynamics, horses, mountain lions, guns. Like I said, “Don't worry about my guns, worry about my chainsaw,” you know, that's what I'll use to come after you instead.
[LAUGHTER]
But, so you learn how to protect yourself. And that's what she did. And I used a part of my life. My grandfather, Daddy Ray always wanted to teach the girls, and he did, how to hunt, fish, and shoot, and be self-sufficient. And that's what Jackie was. Jackie was trying to find a way. And she was going to use Max Cherry. And he was so cute and gullible. Yeah. And she might have given him some, and I had a chat with everyone tonight regarding the ending. What if Max Cherry, after you know, they kissed, and she walks out and he was watching her and the phone rings and he's on vacation. “She's hot, look at that ass.” “Ooh, should I go? Should I go?” What can happen? You know, she gonna pay for everything. So he runs and turns off the lights, puts on the answering machine, takes the key, locks up, runs out there and goes. And she says, “Come on, get on in! Let's go! Let's go!” And he gets in the car and, and she turns on the radio, and shuts it up. And all of a sudden they're driving and Max Cherry starts to chatter, annoyingly.
[LAUGHTER]
“Oh, where we gonna go? What do you think? Do you have the-? Do you have a reservation? Do you [INAUDIBLE].” She's like, “Oh, shut the fuck up.”
[LAUGHTER]
And he continues, you know. Oh, so he didn't chatter before! Now, all of a sudden he's like, “And then, you know, I need to stop by my apartment, I need underwear, and a shirt, and a toothbrush. I need to shave.” And she's like, and she drives around the block, and screeches into a screeching halt in front of his office and says, “Get the fuck out!” And he gets out of the car and he goes, “Whoa, whoa whoa!” And she drives off. You know, that was the ending I gave to Quentin. And he said, “Well, yeah, Pam, but you know, hmm.” But it was a very good idea. “Why don't you tell me before, you know?” But I always wanted to do something like that with Max, just to show that it wasn't going to work. But they wanted it to be ambiguous, and whatever. Yeahhh... “Can you see Jackie and Max in bed?” Silence. Crickets.
[LAUGHTER]
I hear crickets. And everyone said, “I don't know.” You know, and his boxer shorts, and socks, in the sheets. I don't know. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, I thought that there are so many elements to Jackie that made her the woman, today, to survive. Every time there's an-. And life isn't perfect. Freedoms aren't perfect. We're still fighting every day for recognition, marginal freedoms, measured freedoms. And she's just trying to figure out how to survive to the next one. And so she's going after, this is her last chance. She's gonna get that money from dumbass Ordell. You know, like, “he thinks he's cool? I’m gonna get that money, for me.” You know, so she could see her winding, thinking, scheming, planning with Max. “Hey, what does he know?” You know, and she's planning and scheming and, “I need you Max, if you help me.” You know, so yeah, we all do. Try to find a way to make up for our mistakes.
Haden Guest 45:07
Thank you for the question. Thank you for reminding us of Pam Grier's work as a tireless activist. And I really want to salute you for really, everything that you do, you know.
Pam Grier 45:15
Oh, thank you!
Haden Guest 45:17
Yeah. No, seriously. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Pam Grier 45:21
And I used to do a lot of things alone, and you can't. And so I've been very, when I go to Twitter. There is a woman that showed up from the East Coast to help with the Pals Animal Sanctuary, to clean up. She came out to a stay in a hotel and showed up to help for a few days. It was amazing. And the Pals people and animals living synergistically, is where we find homeless seniors to live on an animal sanctuary. In return for room and board they take care of the animals. And Subaru gave us a car for them to take the vets and animals to the hospital and stuff. So through those little efforts that I do by myself, in the middle of the night, I'm rewarded. And everyone is so supportive, and I thank all of you. I mean, it was amazing that she did that. And I've received a lot of assistance for, you know, Pilots N Paws. And Dining Out For Life, where we raise millions of dollars for one day, to support people living with HIV/AIDS, and educating people. And so those are the things that I work with. And book learning. And I send, every Christmas, every holiday, many of the vets in the VA hospital– I had tumors on my thyroid two years ago, and I had surgery. And I had gained a lot of weight and people were, you know, like, “What, are you eating too much?” “No, I have tumors. How about that?” And so the vets can't... many of them have PTSD, they shake, they can't hold books. So I did a George R.R. Martin Wild Cards. And he wrote Game of Thrones. And I asked his publishers, “Do you have any audiobooks kind of hanging around?” I said, “The vets need them because they can't hold books.” And they can sit and listen in a group of great stories told. So if you have any local VA hospitals or programs, send audiobooks to the vets for the holidays, so they can sit and listen to wonderful stories. So that's just another one that I work on.
Haden Guest 47:32
Let's take–, thank you, Pam. Let's take a question here from–, yes.
Audience 4 47:37
Hi, Pam. It's such a pleasure to talk to you. My question was about Jackie, and her future. How do you envision her future after all that happened?
Pam Grier 47:48
Well, if the money ran out, she's in trouble! You know, if she didn't put it in stocks and live off the interest, she's in trouble. I don't know what she would have done, because it was an Elmore Leonard and Quentin. But if it was me, I would have said, “Okay, I might go down to a little vacation.” But I would save, Jackie would save the money, buy a condo and try to get another, you know, job somewhere. But for me, I wouldn't spend the money. And going to Spain, and spending money you know, and listen, I spoke Spanish and I could work there. Yeah, but I think she would be very logical, and hang on to this money and use it wisely. I always tell young actresses who I know on series, I say, “Just work, save your money and live off the interest. That's your asset base, your equity, and your credit. So don't spend your money, you know, live off the interest. And after three years of saving your money from a series, if, you know, it's 30,000, you know, a month, and 300,000 a year in three years, that's almost $900,000. That's quite a bit of interest you can live off of and have credit. So, and I said, don't ever sell your apartment for marriage or love. You know, so I'm very pragmatic, in that way. And I think Jackie would have done that, because she has nowhere to go now.
Haden Guest 49:17
I wanted to ask, I mean, Jackie Brown is an action hero, like all of your great characters. And yet, she's a different kind of action hero. She's a thinker. She's a planner. And it seems that this is a film in which it's– and Tarantino's often accused of not being subtle. And this is a film of great subtlety. And I think one of the things is, there's so many gestures and expressions that you make in the film that suggest certain things are so open to, at the same time, to different readings. And I was wondering if we could talk a bit about the different kind of performance you have here. Like the opening scene where you are just floating, you're gliding.
Pam Grier 49:59
That’s Quentinesque. And he said, “Pam, don't bat an eye.”
Haden Guest 50:03
Okay, so you're meant to be statuesque. And as–.
Pam Grier 50:07
Yes.
[LAUGHTER]
Pam Grier 50:09
“Do not blink. You blink Pam. Okay, take two.” And we're standing up there, and it’s jostling me and he doesn't want me to blink. And I'm going, “Why?”
[LAUGHTER]
He said, “It’s my thing.” “Okay!” And so, you know, he had some madness going, some artistic madness. And we did it, but he wanted me to be just a part of like, the wall, you know. Not breathing, but I'm moving. And I see what it is, it’s wonderful.
Haden Guest 50:41
But then other times you have this slight smile, and we see–.
Pam Grier 50:45
From the side of my mouth?
Haden Guest 50:46
Oh, I love that! I love that! And we know. We know.
Pam Grier 50:50
Marlon Brando said that. He called me up and he wanted me to do a project with him.
Haden Guest 50:54
Marlon Brando called you up?
Pam Grier 50:55
Yes. See, he–.
[LAUGHTER]
Haden Guest 50:57
I had to repeat that!
Pam Grier 50:59
Yes. He passed away before–, he passed away. Yes, he was working with an actor on a project and they wanted me to come aboard. And it was Eriq La Salle. And Eriq La Salle had a production company after he left... what was it? ER. And he had like $24 million, and a house behind the Beverly Hills Hotel. And so he's running a production company and he was working with Marlon. And somehow he gave Marlon my telephone number. And so he would leave the message: “Hi, this is Bran Flakes.”
Haden Guest 51:32
Brad Flakes?
[LAUGHTER]
David Pendleton
Bran Flakes
Pam Grier 51:34
And my boyfriend at the time heard it and said, “Well, who is that?” And I said, “Marlon Brando.”
[LAUGHTER]
Haden Guest 51:46
“Excuse me?”
Pam Grier 51:47
And Marlon knew where I lived. And the Sand Creek Massacre. And he knew how deep my well was. And I said, “Are you a spy? What?” He says, “No, but I want to work with you. And you know what? When I saw Jackie Brown and you talk out the side of your mouth,” I said, “That's gangster,” you know? “What can I tell you?” And he was impressed with that. He really loved Jackie Brown. Anyway, he really wanted to work with me. And I was like, “Marlon Brando. Oh my god!” I was too through! And then my boyfriend started getting jealous and thought I was having to... you know. He hasn’t left Mulholland Drive in years! And I said, “Have you seen him lately?”
[LAUGHTER]
“I mean, he's Marlon Brando, but I don't know if I can give him any right now!”
[LAUGHTER]
You know, I know he's fine. But holy. And back in the day. Whoo. You know, with that motorcycle. Come on, leather. Marlon in leather? Lord have mercy!
[LAUGHTER]
So, yeah. Uh huh. Anyway. So with Jackie's, her subtleties. She was a thinker, but it was a different time. Back in the 70s, there was a lot more overt aggressiveness. To show your power or vulnerability, “You mess with me, I will go off on you.” And Jackie is in a more civil environment. More... not domestic, or pedantic, but just calmer. And Quentin did not want her to be overtly violent. He wanted everyone around her to be violent. Guns. Look at Ordell shooting, you know, his best friend Louis. And Louis shooting Bridget. And Sam talking about beating up Bridget, you know. And, you know, “Don't let me–!” You know, so you've seen, they've had some issues, and everyone around her. And she just seemed to dodge the bullets and used her wits about her. And I think that's what he wanted her to do. Be cunning and, be the, not the weakest one, because the quiet one is not always the weakest one. And she was. But she, I love the fact that she conned everybody. And when Quentin said, “Pam, it's gonna be a very difficult role. You're going to have to learn four different storylines.” So on my hotel wall I had all the pages of the script, on this long wall. And then I had the storyline with Ordell that I had to learn. The storyline with Michael Keaton. The storyline with Max Cherry. And Quentin would shoot out of sequence and it gave me a migraine. And he said, “Pam, I'm going to get fucked up and lose my place. So please, you know, help me keep the sequence. Help me find out where I am. Because I'm going to get confused.” And I and said, “You are? Really? So am I. Great!” And it was tough because I couldn't react when I hadn't experienced something with them. I’m like, “How did I react? Am I gonna react? Or does it like–?” So, we would have those emotional moments. Those talks of, in-sequence, of where we are emotionally, to play off the emotion. And it was like, “Oh my god, where are we? Over here? We did this, okay? He didn't know I did that?” And Quentin said, “I don't know where the fuck we are! Shit.” I said, “Well, what are you telling me for? I need you!” You know. So we had those moments and we would, you know, rise above, get a grip. But that was the intricacy. It was very intricate to do that particularly. And when I tell people I said, “Those four different storylines I had to remember.” And it was very difficult, but I have the discipline. And I didn't want to disappoint them.
Haden Guest 55:50
And you didn't.
Pam Grier 55:51
No, I didn't.
Haden Guest 55:53
Let's take some questions. Let's take the gentleman right here, in the beard.
Audience 5 55:58
Hi, I just have to ask, was Steven Seagal really as weird as everyone says he was, with Above the Law?
Pam Grier 56:05
Is Steven Seagal?
Audience 5 56:07
Yeah. Do you remember working with him?
Pam Grier 56:09
As weird?
Audience 5 56:10
Yeah. I just heard–.
Pam Grier 56:13
Well, when we did our first movie, Above the Law, he wasn't weird.
[LAUGHTER]
Haden Guest 56:26
And then?
Pam Grier 56:27
He hadn't made you know, thirty million dollars yet. I think money makes you weird. I think money just totally fucks you up. Yeah. Well if you read– Did you see Marlon, his documentary on Showtime?
David Pendleton 56:40
My name is–
Pam Grier 56:41
My name is Marlon? And how he talks about his life. It’s really interesting. But Steven, he was very humble. And he really took some knocks and hits because he was handsome. And he was an Aikidoist. And he ran like a girl and all the crew members punished him for it. And he was very normal to me and very kind. And when he shot in Colorado, he invited my mom and my family to the set to visit him and he's very normal. And so maybe he could be to other people, but not to me because, you know, I'll kick his ass.
[LAUGHTER]
You know, I come from a long line of skillet-throwin’ women so you can Aikido all you want, you know, and I like, “Ka-pow!” You know, “Ka-pow!” over him. You know, backhand. You know, we got Mama's that can throw them skillets, you know, hit you upside the head, you know, trying to keep us kids in line. But otherwise, he was very humble and nice to me. So I don't know, somebody must have pissed him off along the way after me. And he could have been an asshole to him. But he's never been to me and I always find him very gracious. His kids are grown. He's put them through college. He's very kind and he likes what he does. Steven is, you know, Steven. But he was kind to me, which is, you know, what matters.
David Pendleton 58:10
There's a fellow hat-wearer on the aisle here.
[LAUGHTER]
Pam Grier 58:14
Le chapeau monsieur.
David Pendleton 58:16
Right, exactly.
Haden Guest 58:18
If you could use the microphone, then we can all hear.
Audience 6 58:21
Hello, Miss Grier! Welcome.
Pam Grier 58:23
Well, thank you. I'm lovin’ it. I'm lovin’, I'm eatin’ my way through this campus. It’s just fabulous, I must say. Your seafood, the city, everyone's great. And being recognized by so many people on the street. It's been just great. Just great.
Audience 6 58:40
When you look back at Jackie Brown, do you wish you would have had more scenes with Robert De Niro?
Pam Grier 58:48
You mean sexy Robert De Niro?
[LAUGHTER]
With Louis? “Lou-ISS!”
[LAUGHTER]
Haden Guest 58:57
Don’t call him that!
[LAUGHTER]
Pam Grier 59:00
“Lou-ISS!” You know, and then Bridget called him chickenshit. With her foot, she had her foot all over his drink. You know, and I'm surprised he didn't smack her then! You know, but yeah, he's sexy. But you wanted Jackie to have some, you know, in-and-out with him?
[LAUGHTER]
Haden Guest 59:21
No! He just meant more scenes, more time with him.
Pam Grier 59:22
More scenes?
[LAUGHTER]
Pam Grier 59:26
I wish! I wish I could do every movie with Robert De Niro. You know, and why would you ask that question?
Audience 6 59:34
[INAUDIBLE. SPEAKER TALKS WITHOUT MICROPHONE]
Pam Grier 59:41
Well, let me give you a little bit of hypothetical tidbit. So, there was a time where I was going to do Monsters Ball, before Halle Berry, and it was going to be Robert De Niro and myself. And the reason why they thought I would do it, or the producers at the time, was because I had already done a nude scene, and a lot of sisters don't feel comfortable doing nude scenes. Anne Hathaway, she is all of that. She is brilliant. She has done nudity in Love & Other Drugs. And, a movie– It was with Jake Gyllenhaal. And also in, she did a topless scene in Brokeback Mountain, where she played the wife. And so a lot of actresses have done nudity, and very comfortably. They own it. That's the scene. That's the work. And at the time in the early 80s women weren't comfortable doing nudity, and I had already done it in Coffy and Foxy Brown. So they felt comfortable that I would be able to do a nude scene with Robert De Niro. Of course I'll do a nude scene with Robert De Niro! [LAUGHTER] And I woulda won an Oscar!
[LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE]
Are you kidding me? So, but it didn't call for it, you know? So yes, I would have, but it didn't call for it. He was not Jackie's friend. He was Ordell’s. And they had their friendship. And I didn't want to, you know, ask Quentin and say, “Hey, let's rewrite it!” No, but yeah, it would have been nice.
David Pendleton 1:01:18
There's a woman here in the second row with her hand up, and then we'll go to those two back there.
Pam Grier 1:01:27
You're spicy! Like, whoo!
Audience 7 1:01:30
Hi, Pam. Thank you so much for coming to Boston. I really have enjoyed this retrospective. I’m trying to be coherent here. So there's a lot in your films that, you know, I think a lot of us admire. You being such a strong woman and standing up to the men and holding your own. Another thing that I saw last night, and tonight, between Foxy Brown and Jackie Brown, was the way that the character interacts with some of the other women in the scene. And there's definitely a certain like tenderness between—especially with Foxy and the other, like, call girl? You know, and she's like, “Pull yourself together.” And then with Bridget, when she's like, “Oh, I put a little cherry on top for you.” Like, “What has Ordell ever done for us?” So, you know, last night you had spoken a bit about like the patriarchy and you know, knowing that you are a feminist sometimes, you know, based on an article I read. Do you have any kind of advice, I guess, for women sticking together and helping break down the patriarchy?
Pam Grier 1:02:43
Well, if it's basically– Some people would say, “Do I trust every woman? Do I trust the character of a person?” Because not every woman is going to be your friend. They can be just as devious as a man. So it’s about character. And you pose the question of, you know, “Are you– Do you have the character to be my friend? To work with me, have a partnership and a company? Own businesses?” And maybe not. But you can ask that question and see if, you know, as women need to stick together, is there a woman's bank we should go to? And how do you feel about that? Growing women's power, which has been neglected for a long time. So as we are awakening to our strength and power, just because you are pro-woman doesn't mean you're anti-man. You're just saying, “I want to be the best woman that I can be. So you’ll respect me.” And that's to anyone. And that's what you do. And if everyone did that, then everyone would have more trust and faith. Saying, “No, I'm not gonna fuck over you. I'm there, you know. We're gonna buy, you know, we're gonna make a film together, we'll use our assets. And I won't cheat you. I'll be there for you.” And that's the character of the person. And then you might find a guy that will do the same thing. So would you reject his character and his offerings over a woman? You know, so it's up to you to think like, “Hey, that's great,” because, you know, there's women's companies who are going to hire men. And male companies that will hire women. So you have to think critically about your situation, but I think as a whole, women can stick together and prove—because sometimes they don't have anyone else. But don't reject the power of a man. Use it as an equal base. If they can't step up to your equality, then, you know. And that goes for women too. And it's not a fine line. It's very simple. It's very simple. But I do support the women's movement, because Gloria Steinem gave me the courage. She gave me the courage to say, “Pam, don't, you know, you're doing great. You're not wearing makeup and using your sexuality for men. You're using it for yourself.” And that's femininity. That's “Womanity. You're doing it for yourself. And my grandfather, who was the first feminist in my family, said to all those girls, “If you learn how to do something, men will respect you.” Because, in many instances, they will start to resent you when you don't. When they're doing everything, and they're dragging you along. When will they respect you? So when you can stand up and say, “I can do this too, honey. Take a rest for a minute,” then they go, “Wow, I feel really good about that.” That's equality. That's balance. That's Yin and Yang. And not every–. I've been to groups where women are anti-men. They don't want to have anything to do with men. Life is good with women. And I respect that. And I didn't ask everyone about their narrative why. But they had a, “No, I'm good. I'm good.” And that's okay. And they weren't gay. They just said, “No, I'm doing this this way. I want it this way.” And I've met women like that. And I respect their view.
Haden Guest 1:06:37
Should we take one more? One more question?
David Pendleton 1:06:38
Okay, sure. There was a gentleman on the aisle. Or else though, I know that the woman with the red hair has had her hand up.
Pam Grier 1:06:47
Yes.
Pam Grier 1:06:49
“Mom! Mom! You're not asking anything, mom!” I met them on the street. Her son recognized me and they were very kind and generous with their compliments. And thank you for coming again, the second night. Thank you.
And you know, I get a lot of my confidence from women, who, I get from their looks, their dress, their education, where they come from, their philosophies are so vastly different. And I draw on that, for my work. And we are so individually... and so unique, and it's just great.
So come on, stand up! Show that red hair!
[LAUGHTER]
Audience 8 1:06:45
Hi! Thank you so much. This has been such an inspiring night. One of my questions was about the music in Jackie Brown. Because I think that it's such a great love letter to music. And I was wondering if you had any, any input into the soundtrack? And also, if you had any particular attachment to any of the songs.
Pam Grier 1:08:04
Well, those are the songs that I grew up with in the 70s, that I was, you know, like romantic about. And Quentin wanted–, because he’s timeless. So you would think Jackie Brown was like, late 70s, 80s. The cars, the style, the music, it was all Quentin's. And he would play music on the set that he's going to use in the movie to see how everyone reacted. And we were dancing. And so, when you work with Quentin, you’re gonna party. And he put us in that era of late 70s, early 80s. Because, you know, there’s Ordell’s car, everyone's cars were old and dated. Max Cherry’s little Cadillac that they no longer make anymore. Jackie's little–, and you notice the car that Jackie drove?
Haden Guest 1:08:46
A Honda, yeah.
Pam Grier 1:08:48
That Honda was in Pulp Fiction. Remember who drove that?
Haden Guest 1:08:50
Oh, God. I don’t. Somebody does.
Pam Grier 1:08:52
Bruce!
Haden Guest 1:08:53
Oh, very good.
[LAUGHTER]
Pam Grier 1:08:55
Bruce. He drove that car. I wanted that car.
Haden Guest 1:08:58
Oh, right! Where he hits the– at the crossroad–.
Pam Grier 1:08:59
Right. Right. I said, “Quentin, where's that car?” He said, “I'm not telling you.” I said, “I want it! Can I have it? Please? I'll give you $2.”
[LAUGHTER]
“Will you give it to me?” But he works timeless, so you can’t–. If you look at Pulp Fiction, it's timeless. If you look at Reservoir Dogs, in the suits, it’s timeless. And that's a wonder, he's wonderful about that.
Haden Guest 1:09:27
For Jackie's record collection, I mean, did you have any input into that? The Delfonics or..?
Pam Grier 1:09:31
I already knew about that, cause I was slow dancin’, jammin’ with Kareem Abdul Jabbar on that song.
[LAUGHTER]
Haden Guest 1:09:39
That same song?
Pam Grier 1:09:41
Yeah! Uh huh!
David Pendleton 1:09:42
Well, I mean, a lot of the music actually comes from blaxploitation films from the 70s.
Haden Guest 1:09:46
Well, Coffy.
Pam Grier 1:09:47
That era!
David Pendleton 1:09:48
Ones you’re in and other ones! Like Across 110th Street is the title song to another movie.
Pam Grier 1:09:50
And Bobby Womack was the one that I sang with in my first job, when I came out to California. And he said, “Well, I have a friend named Sylvester Stewart that needs some more background singers.” So, you know, I said, “Well, I need some money. College money. So yeah!” So he says, “Well here, Sylvester will see you tomorrow at this address.” It says “CBS Studios” and I'm going, “Wow!” You know, I just got into town. I had a raggedy old Jeep and, you know, saving money. I had thirty-three dollars and a bucket of chicken when I arrived in LA. And I go to this address, CBS Records, and I said, “I'm here to see Sylvester Stone. Bobby Womack sent me.” And we go up and it's dark and there is Sly and the Family Stone. He is Sylvester Stewart. I'm gonna sing background for him and Buddy Miles is on the drums. And I'm gonna make triple-scale. I'm gonna make three-hundred dollars.
[LAUGHTER]
And I was happy, I said, “Whoo!” Okay. And Bobby, I sang background for him on “Across 110th Street,” I can understand it.
Haden Guest 1:10:56
Oh, you did?
Pam Grier 1:10:57
Yeah, uh huh, yeah. And yeah, I'm on some of the albums. I'm just doo-wopping. I'm just like, “Ooh, wooh, wooh, ooh, wooh.”
[LAUGHTER]
Haden Guest 1:11:06
That's beautiful! And then you sing it at the end!
Pam Grier 1:11:10
I did a lot of “Ooh wee, ooh wee, ooh wee, ooh wee, ooh.” Anything as a college student to make money. I was saving. It was so expensive in Los Angeles. It was crazy. I was, like, “I'm going back home,” you know. “They're gonna put my ass and send me right back home,” you know. But I stayed, I stuck it out! I stuck it out! And a crew– The reason why I wanted to stay and do films was because on the campus there was a film student film crew loading up their van. And I was trying to get into film school and I was an out of state student. And it was so expensive. And I just felt, “Oh my god.” And I was crying in the phone booth telling my mom, “I don't think we’re going to make it. I might have to come home.” And I walked over to these students. It was one woman, all, maybe five males. And they treated everyone equally. And I loved it. And they invited me to come along, that night, while they're making films. And the actresses were changing wig colors and costumes and walking on the street and acting and slapping and giggling. And I was like, “Oh, this is wonderful!” And I held the boom. And my Afro got in the way. And I learned, and I was watching and learning. I said, “This is Gypsy filmmaking! I love this! I love this!” And so I had to push, with two other guys, the Volkswagen, because we had to kill the engine and use it as a dolly. So they had the camera at the door, and the boom. And we were pushing the dolly down the street in the middle of the night! And then the police caught us and turned on their lights and sirens, because we didn't have a permit. And so we had to turn on the engine. “Go! we gotta get out of here!” We got to jump in the car and head out there before they took us to jail. And I said, “I love this. This is what I want to do. I'm going to stay here and save and be a film student.” And I thought, never to be an actor, because I didn't find myself beautiful to that Hollywood attractiveness of makeup and eyelashes and hair. I was a Colorado student. You're poor. You eat pickles and cheese, you know, every day and night. I just didn't know how to put on makeup. I was wearing Timberland boots at the time that were like 2.99 from JC Penney's. And I was wearing Levi's and a flannel shirt. And they said, “Where are you from?” “Colorado.” “Really? There's Black people in Colorado?”
[LAUGHTER]
I said, “Yeah, the Black underground! The Black West! Uh huh. Yeah, I can ride a horse and whup your ass at the same time!”
[LAUGHTER]
So I brought my narrative. And I learned. And that's when, that day, I said, “I gotta try to do this.” And I was in love with it. And anyone who's a film student, you know what I'm talking about. All hours of the day and night. Cuttin’ all the remnants of 35 millimeter that you get, you put them together, you know, for your magazine, for your film. And you just want to tell stories. And we all have so many beautiful stories of our culture, and growing up in America, from back in the day to where we are now. So there's wonderful stories to tell. And I do hope that the film students will be as impassioned and inflamed as I was to to be a part of that.
Haden Guest 1:14:41
Well, tonight, we're all students of Pam Grier. We are deeply grateful to you for being with us tonight. And for allowing us to celebrate your work. Please join me in thanking Pam Grier!
[ENTHUSIASTIC APPLAUSE]
Pam Grier 1:14:54
Wow, thank you. Thank you everyone. More to come!
[ENTHUSIASTIC CHEERING AND APPLAUSE]
© Harvard Film Archive
Part of film series
Screenings from this program
Foxy Brown
Jackie Brown
Greased Lightning
